Economy 7 phasing out

1961Nick

Economy 7 is a bit of a blunt instrument in the age of smart energy. It's probably become a smart tariff with the appropriate rebranding.

Sterlingtimes

If gas heating is phased out and replaced by electricity then would there not be greater demand for electricity during the day given that few people heat their homes at night? Could Economy 7 as a concept continue to serve those who would use thermal storage heating?

JKenH

Many of us heat  our hot water overnight by electricity but that only takes 1 or 2 hours so Octopus Go fulfils that demand. Prior to getting solar panels I found E7 useful at breakfast time, particularly in summer when my cheap rate ended at 0836. Kettle toast and an electric space heater in kitchen and bathroom all went on on cheap rate. I switched to Octopus Go when I got my first EV as the cheaper rate on charging and water heating outweighed the breakfast time benefit. I also have a NeoStar insulated urn that heats up between 05.30 and 06.30 on Go Faster. I can also use my PPS with AtoASHP for space heating or I can time the ASHP to come on around 05.00 in colder weather. So, yes, I miss the extra hours of E7 but with my work rounds find Octopus Go Faster to be a lot cheaper.

Unfortunately unless you have an EV you can’t access the cheapest night time alternatives to E7.

Pulpdiction

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

JKenH

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

That not as far fetched as it might seem. Toyota have already implemented the installation of locally generated hydrogen fuelling stations based on the SimpleFuel project (links below). If the hydrogen is on tap in the home (rather than needing to be generated) then getting it into the car shouldn’t be technically beyond us. The cost ma6 be beyond the average home but perhaps it could be adopted at some commercial sites.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/toyota-introduces-simplefuel-station-for-the-production-and-supply-of-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy-at-motomachi-plant/

I anticipate this post will generate some negative comment from those opposed to hydrogen in principle.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

That not as far fetched as it might seem. Toyota have already implemented the installation of locally generated hydrogen fuelling stations based on the SimpleFuel project (links below). If the hydrogen is on tap in the home (rather than needing to be generated) then getting it into the car shouldn’t be technically beyond us. The cost ma6 be beyond the average home but perhaps it could be adopted at some commercial sites.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/toyota-introduces-simplefuel-station-for-the-production-and-supply-of-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy-at-motomachi-plant/

I anticipate this post will generate some negative comment from those opposed to hydrogen in principle.

The problem would be the size & cost of a domestic plant to liquify gaseous hydrogen. 

anon_ymous

JKenH said:

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

That not as far fetched as it might seem. Toyota have already implemented the installation of locally generated hydrogen fuelling stations based on the SimpleFuel project (links below). If the hydrogen is on tap in the home (rather than needing to be generated) then getting it into the car shouldn’t be technically beyond us. The cost ma6 be beyond the average home but perhaps it could be adopted at some commercial sites.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/toyota-introduces-simplefuel-station-for-the-production-and-supply-of-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy-at-motomachi-plant/

I anticipate this post will generate some negative comment from those opposed to hydrogen in principle.

Isn't the current big issue with hydrogen that it's basically produced as a byproduct of fossil fuels? 

Pulpdiction

JKenH said:

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

That not as far fetched as it might seem. Toyota have already implemented the installation of locally generated hydrogen fuelling stations based on the SimpleFuel project (links below). If the hydrogen is on tap in the home (rather than needing to be generated) then getting it into the car shouldn’t be technically beyond us. The cost ma6 be beyond the average home but perhaps it could be adopted at some commercial sites.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/toyota-introduces-simplefuel-station-for-the-production-and-supply-of-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy-at-motomachi-plant/

I anticipate this post will generate some negative comment from those opposed to hydrogen in principle.

It's not far fetched at all, until 12 months ago I worked in a role in the industry where policy was being discussed, these are exactly the conversations being had within BEIS and the regulator.

JKenH

waqasahmed said:

JKenH said:

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

That not as far fetched as it might seem. Toyota have already implemented the installation of locally generated hydrogen fuelling stations based on the SimpleFuel project (links below). If the hydrogen is on tap in the home (rather than needing to be generated) then getting it into the car shouldn’t be technically beyond us. The cost ma6 be beyond the average home but perhaps it could be adopted at some commercial sites.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108482_simplefuel-home-hydrogen-fuel-dispenser-wins-1-million-doe-prize

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/toyota-introduces-simplefuel-station-for-the-production-and-supply-of-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy-at-motomachi-plant/

I anticipate this post will generate some negative comment from those opposed to hydrogen in principle.

Isn't the current big issue with hydrogen that it's basically produced as a byproduct of fossil fuels? 

That’s part of it but another part is that if hydrogen were to succeed it would probably be Toyota and existing players in the fossil fuel industry that might capitalise on it and in the USA that annoys a certain quite vocal element in the green sector who want to see the destruction of those they consider responsible for the climate crisis. 

Ectophile

Pulpdiction said:

It's likely that gas will be replaced with hydrogen.  Lots of gas boilers can be converted fairly simply, and there is already a mix being trialed, I think it was up to 15% hydrogen last time I was involved.  I recently left the energy industry though, but I do know there was talk as little as 2 years ago of using Leeds as the first hydrogen city, possibly by 2026, so change supply over in it's entirety to 100% hydrogen.  Of course if this happens then it does also mean we may not have seen the end of hydrogen cars and if you have a supply to your house you can charge at home like electric.

The trouble with mixing hydrogen with methane is that you're diluting the mixture.  It's not much better than adding air to the gas.

In terms of energy per kilogram, hydrogen is a wonderful fuel.  But looking at energy per cubic metre at normal gas pressures, it's rubbish.

Which makes using 100% hydrogen a bit of a problem.  Either the gas pressure has to be increased a lot, which will cause pipes to burst all over the place and make leaks worse, or else boilers will use a lot more gas to give the same heat.