Too much energy?

anon_ymous

Could we end up having too much available energy? Not necessarily in colder countries like the UK, but say Spain, where it makes sense to put solar panels up for most people, and then export that back to the grid. Here it still makes sense but the economics obviously favour countries that get more sunlight. 

I'm guessing they would export some of that energy to other countries? Or the grid would end up using their house not as a way to directly export energy to the grid, but as if the house was a giant battery in itself ie: for excess storage?

Would that also mean that we could potentially close down a couple of power plants, if we could just tap into that reserve? (By we, I mean we as humans, and not just in the UK) 

paul991

i think thats  what  is already happening more on the industrial  scale if  you  go  to https://gridwatch.co.uk/ you can see that  the  uk is currently exporting 11 per cent of its output to Europe, the  grid  will eventually include  morocco and Iceland  which will provide greater stability unfortunately long and  short term pricing does not depend on how  green the energy  source is

anon_ymous

paul991 said:

i think thats  what  is already happening more on the industrial  scale if  you  go  to https://gridwatch.co.uk/ you can see that  the  uk is currently exporting 11 per cent of its output to Europe, the  grid  will eventually include  morocco and Iceland  which will provide greater stability unfortunately long and  short term pricing does not depend on how  green the energy  source is

I guess Morocco can export solar (albeit at vastly reduced efficiency over such a distance), and Iceland can export it's geothermal energy to (again, albeit at a vastly reduced efficiency)

Equally, we could easily export wind to both countries, with similar caveats. 

Martyn1981

waqasahmed said:

paul991 said:

i think thats  what  is already happening more on the industrial  scale if  you  go  to https://gridwatch.co.uk/ you can see that  the  uk is currently exporting 11 per cent of its output to Europe, the  grid  will eventually include  morocco and Iceland  which will provide greater stability unfortunately long and  short term pricing does not depend on how  green the energy  source is

I guess Morocco can export solar (albeit at vastly reduced efficiency over such a distance), and Iceland can export it's geothermal energy to (again, albeit at a vastly reduced efficiency)

Equally, we could easily export wind to both countries, with similar caveats. 

Sort of good news. Hope I'm not spinning this, but you mentioned less efficiency, but actually HVDC cables, such as the proposed very long ones from Morocco, or even Iceland if that gets a go ahead, 'only' lose about 3% for each 1,000km of length. So with Morocco getting about 60-80% more generation for the same amount of panels, there is, sort of, an efficiency gain. The proposed site also gets massive capacity factors for on-shore wind, again 60-80% higher than the UK.

However, the downside is the enormous cost of the cabling, which pushes the total cost of delivered generation up, quite a lot, possibly costing more than the leccy component.

But as you say, exporting wind from the UK has vast potential, and tbf to the Gov, they really are ramping up off-shore wind fast. Could be faster, of course, but overall a great success.

Now, just need to tear down all the barriers to on-shore wind and PV in the UK, a smidge of storage (yes that's a joke), and we're off and running.

paul991

i suspect the reason things have not moved faster is the vast amount of lobbying from nuclear and oil companies
i  believe a  factory has already been  built for the morocco cable.

anon_ymous

Martyn1981 said:

waqasahmed said:

paul991 said:

i think thats  what  is already happening more on the industrial  scale if  you  go  to https://gridwatch.co.uk/ you can see that  the  uk is currently exporting 11 per cent of its output to Europe, the  grid  will eventually include  morocco and Iceland  which will provide greater stability unfortunately long and  short term pricing does not depend on how  green the energy  source is

I guess Morocco can export solar (albeit at vastly reduced efficiency over such a distance), and Iceland can export it's geothermal energy to (again, albeit at a vastly reduced efficiency)

Equally, we could easily export wind to both countries, with similar caveats. 

Sort of good news. Hope I'm not spinning this, but you mentioned less efficiency, but actually HVDC cables, such as the proposed very long ones from Morocco, or even Iceland if that gets a go ahead, 'only' lose about 3% for each 1,000km of length. So with Morocco getting about 60-80% more generation for the same amount of panels, there is, sort of, an efficiency gain. The proposed site also gets massive capacity factors for on-shore wind, again 60-80% higher than the UK.

However, the downside is the enormous cost of the cabling, which pushes the total cost of delivered generation up, quite a lot, possibly costing more than the leccy component.

But as you say, exporting wind from the UK has vast potential, and tbf to the Gov, they really are ramping up off-shore wind fast. Could be faster, of course, but overall a great success.

Now, just need to tear down all the barriers to on-shore wind and PV in the UK, a smidge of storage (yes that's a joke), and we're off and running.

That'd be pretty good if there are improvements in efficiency. Morocco does have a lot of solar potential for sure 

markin

paul991 said:

i think thats  what  is already happening more on the industrial  scale if  you  go  to https://gridwatch.co.uk/ you can see that  the  uk is currently exporting 11 per cent of its output to Europe, the  grid  will eventually include  morocco and Iceland  which will provide greater stability unfortunately long and  short term pricing does not depend on how  green the energy  source is

We are flooded with cheap Gas from LNG, We are pumping it to the EU and burning it to send power as they don't have LNG terminals. But as we have no way to store it for winter the price will rise again when we really need it, And once the EU builds temporary terminals prices will rise. Spain has terminals.

Spain expects EU to pay for gas connections with neighbours

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/spain-expects-eu-pay-gas-connections-with-neighbours-2022-05-31/

https://youtu.be/4TenksrSL_0

JKenH

In the event of a dispute (war) with a foreign power long distance interconnects would be an easy target (compared with say the Dambusters raid on the German dams in WW2 which necessitated significant sacrifice of lives). Interconnectors are not without their problems as we have seen with the IFA fire.

markin

 The last 2 days last week wind has hit 50%, So it could be wind we are exporting at times.

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?period=7-days&start=2022-05-20&&_k=kr4du9

Also currently exporting on all interconnections including Orkney.

https://app.electricitymap.org/map?solar=false

anon_ymous

JKenH said:

In the event of a dispute (war) with a foreign power long distance interconnects would be an easy target (compared with say the Dambusters raid on the German dams in WW2 which necessitated significant sacrifice of lives). Interconnectors are not without their problems as we have seen with the IFA fire.

Fair shout, but this would surely just be excess power anyway?

So it'd hit us economically but we wouldn't be without power itself? 

JKenH

waqasahmed said:

JKenH said:

In the event of a dispute (war) with a foreign power long distance interconnects would be an easy target (compared with say the Dambusters raid on the German dams in WW2 which necessitated significant sacrifice of lives). Interconnectors are not without their problems as we have seen with the IFA fire.

Fair shout, but this would surely just be excess power anyway?

So it'd hit us economically but we wouldn't be without power itself? 

I was thinking of the Morocco link which would be providing in the region of 10% of our demand. To lose that would have consequences.