How do we address this E7 anomaly?

ez2610

I wrote recently to Greg Jackson at Octopus… I received an acknowledgement from his office, but nothing since… What can we Economy 7 users do about the unfairness of these new eco car tariffs when the only energy supply we have is electric? 

Dear Greg Jackson,

I heard your interview on Radio 4.

I wanted to contact you to highlight what I feel is an ethical (maybe moral) injustice for E7 users. As you’ll know, this tariff was introduced to encourage night usage when demand on the grid was lower. Many rural properties, including ours, is electric only. We live in an area with no mains sewage, no street lights, no gas mains. 

The E7 night rate has crept up exponentially since we moved here in 2012. The first rate we paid was 5p per unit. You will be aware your current variable rate is 20.94p.

I understand the energy market is not influenced by domestic policy alone. However, there is a massive anomaly between E7 users like myself, and your E-car charging tariffs that similarly use lower demand usage periods. Up to 6 hours of charging at 7.5p per unit.

I’d like to understand why this cannot be applied to the 3.5m users of E7? If the response is the ‘government’ have determined where discounts can be applied, who is lobbying for the 3.5 million who’ve already seen an increase in their night rates of over 300%, or put another way are paying 4 times what they paid 10 years ago..?

I can’t afford to invest in oil (and ethically don’t want to). I can’t afford an electric car. I can afford my electricity bills (by drastically reducing my consumption and being colder as a consequence) but I dislike intensely the inequity of the current E7 tariff which must be paid, and the E-car tariff that is entirely optional, and dependent on a significant level of personal investment many in rural areas simply do not have.

We need an advocate. Is that you?

Yours sincerely etc.

Maybe Mr Lewis could help?

MWT

ez2610 said:

If the response is the ‘government’ have determined where discounts can be applied, who is lobbying for the 3.5 million who’ve already seen an increase in their night rates of over 300%, or put another way are paying 4 times what they paid 10 years ago..?

It is nothing to do with government, there is however money being invested in figuring out how to handle the growth in demand from the predicted increase in EV owners charging their vehicles and that is how the costs of those tariffs are being reduced.

Right now those EV owners who participate in the development of the control methods and provide the data through their use of these new tariffs are befitting from the subsidised nature of those tariffs.

There is nothing being invested in artificial support for E7, nor is there frankly, anything much to learn about that market.

At some point the products will have been developed, the data will have been collected and I suspect the subsidies for those tariffs will dry up and the prices will rise, but for now, yes, they get a benefit from their initial investment in the cost of the EV.

You will likely see similar tariffs for ASHP as well in the near future, and once again they will not be available for those who have not invested in that technology either...

Frustrating as it may be, you have not had the additional expenditure required to be part of either of those groups and so do not benefit from the new tariffs, but overall as you've not had to incur the extra costs, you are probably not actually any worse off either .

It would seem wrong to want the benefit of a subsidy without incurring the costs to get into the subsidised group...  

In general terms, the days of cheap overnight power that needs to be used are gone, the rational for E7 really isn't there any more unfortunately.

Sterlingtimes

MWT said:

In general terms, the days of cheap overnight power that needs to be used are gone, the rational for E7 really isn't there any more unfortunately.

If E7 were to be abolished, this would introduce a huge additional burden on those who live in electricity only apartment blocks or old age sheltered accommodation.

Currently, my 93-year-old mother pays:

E.ON Economy 7 prices including VAT
Day 665 x 0.3315 = 220.44
Night 5268 x 0.1669 = 879.23
Standing charge 48.31 x 365 = 175.97
TOTAL £1,275.64

Without E7, she would pay about £800 extra, i.e. a 63% increase on top of all other increases.

These people cannot have heat pumps fitted.

I agree with you that "the rationale for E7 really isn't there anymore" but will the electricity suppliers just write to customers one day to tell them that storage heaters ought to be replaced by traditional radiators and bar heaters?

MWT

Sterlingtimes said:

Without E7, she would pay about £800 extra, i.e. a 63% increase on top of all other increases.

These people cannot have heat pumps fitted.

I agree with you that "the rationale for E7 really isn't there anymore" but will the electricity suppliers just write to customers one day to tell them that storage heaters ought to be replaced by traditional radiators and bar heaters?

It would be more like £600 extra as without E7 the day rate would be lower, but yes, I take your point, there are a lot of people with heating methods predicated on a differential that is steadily shrinking...

I certainly don't expect E7 to just vanish, but we should anticipate that the gap between day and night is going to continue to reduce as the demand at night increases.

There is a lot of sense in E7 moving away from day/night to something more like day/peak/night which would recognise the current reality that there is a cost saving still to be made by shifting demand out of the 16:00-19:00 period, that when matched with half-hour settlement would at least give people choices that would let them cut their costs if willing/able to change their use patterns...

Gerry1

MWT said:

Sterlingtimes said:

Without E7, she would pay about £800 extra, i.e. a 63% increase on top of all other increases.

These people cannot have heat pumps fitted.

I agree with you that "the rationale for E7 really isn't there anymore" but will the electricity suppliers just write to customers one day to tell them that storage heaters ought to be replaced by traditional radiators and bar heaters?

There is a lot of sense in E7 moving away from day/night to something more like day/peak/night which would recognise the current reality that there is a cost saving still to be made by shifting demand out of the 16:00-19:00 period, that when matched with half-hour settlement would at least give people choices that would let them cut their costs if willing/able to change their use patterns...

'Cut their costs'?  Yeah, right.

Let me translate that for you.

'Coming soon to a Smart Meter near you... prohibitively expensive Surge Pricing.  Much less conspicuous than the headline price caps of £1277, £1971, £2800 et al.'

MWT

Electricity has a different cost by time of day, half-hour settlement for the suppliers is unavoidably coming, as a consumer you can choose to ignore it or you can engage with it and perhaps profit by doing so, or if you prefer, lose less by making changes.

One way or another it must by now be clear to most people that just assuming that we can get cheap energy at any time of day is not going to be possible again any time soon, so unwelcome as it is, I'd rather be moving ahead of the changes and adapting rather than sitting on the beach trying to command the tide to recede...

 

[Deleted User]

As far as I know, the only EV tariff that offers 6 hours of cheap electricity is Intelligent Octopus which is not suitable for most EVs nor would it be suitable for homes with storage heaters. The 6 hours are not continuous: they vary with 30 minute pricing. Is the OP advocating the same should apply to homes with heat pumps? 

MWT

Dolor said:

As far as I know, the only EV tariff that offers 6 hours of cheap electricity is Intelligent Octopus which is not suitable for most EVs nor would it be suitable for homes with storage heaters. The 6 hours are not continuous: they vary with 30 minute pricing. Is the OP advocating the same should apply to homes with heat pumps? 

The 'Intelligent' tariff does offer 6 contiguous hours at the low rate and in addition any other half-hour segments Octopus chooses to give them outside of those hours.

The core low rate is from 23:30 - 05:30, it is an appealing offering for E7 users, I fully accept that, it just isn't who this tariff is for, unless they also have a suitable EV...