Windfall tax

wmb194

Dave.44 said:

In the UK we are substantially self sufficient in oil and gas. We are just not controlling the domestic market. 

No, not really, particularly as the grades of oil (80%?) cannot be used in the refineries here.

https://www.statista.com/topics/4938/energy-imports-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/#dossierContents__outerWrapper

At the end of the day you're talking about the expropriation of private property, and 'controlling markets' sounds very much like the failed post-war government policies that worked oh so well. /s

Linton

Dave.44 said:

In the UK we are substantially self sufficient in oil and gas. We are just not controlling the domestic market. 

It is more complex than that.  If you look up the oil data you will find that we export a lot of crude oil and import about the same amount.  Seems odd but a key reason is that crude oils from different fields are not the same.  The differences lead to different processing requirements and mean that some oils are better for particular products than others. 

So even though we do produce a lot of oil we are still dependent on the world market.

As crude oil is not very useful in its raw form the global market for processed products such as petrol and diesel is also important.  Apparently we only produce about 50%-60% of the diesel we use.  

Millyonare

UK should have begun a fracking bonanza in the 2000s. Enough shale gas to power the whole country for up to half a century. Hundreds of thousands of new, high-pay careers. Blackpool would by now be one of the richest places in the world. We'd all be paying £30 a month for energy, not £300.

Dave.44

Linton said:

Dave.44 said:

In the UK we are substantially self sufficient in oil and gas. We are just not controlling the domestic market. 

It is more complex than that.  If you look up the oil data you will find that we export a lot of crude oil and import about the same amount.  Seems odd but a key reason is that crude oils from different fields are not the same.  The differences lead to different processing requirements and mean that some oils are better for particular products than others. 

So even though we do produce a lot of oil we are still dependent on the world market.

As crude oil is not very useful in its raw form the global market for processed products such as petrol and diesel is also important.  Apparently we only produce about 50%-60% of the diesel we use.  

Yes, I know that we export much of our oil and import the shortfall. We are still substantially self sufficient taking into account the net result.  I notice this morning that George Brown has the same ideas as myself and requesting government to consider. Look at costs of recovery for all oil companies operating in the North Sea as these are substantially unchanged, Look at profit levels and make sure they are not ridiculous. Put a temporary hold on energy cap. Control the Domestic market.

Xbigman

Dave.44 said:

Linton said:

Dave.44 said:

In the UK we are substantially self sufficient in oil and gas. We are just not controlling the domestic market. 

It is more complex than that.  If you look up the oil data you will find that we export a lot of crude oil and import about the same amount.  Seems odd but a key reason is that crude oils from different fields are not the same.  The differences lead to different processing requirements and mean that some oils are better for particular products than others. 

So even though we do produce a lot of oil we are still dependent on the world market.

As crude oil is not very useful in its raw form the global market for processed products such as petrol and diesel is also important.  Apparently we only produce about 50%-60% of the diesel we use.  

Yes, I know that we export much of our oil and import the shortfall. We are still substantially self sufficient taking into account the net result.  I notice this morning that George Brown has the same ideas as myself and requesting government to consider. Look at costs of recovery for all oil companies operating in the North Sea as these are substantially unchanged, Look at profit levels and make sure they are not ridiculous. Put a temporary hold on energy cap. Control the Domestic market.

What happens when Norway does the same and stops sending us Gas and Electric. More far fetched would be if France decides the easiest way to keep food prices down in France is not to sell outside the EU. There are repercussions for effectively nationalising anything.


Darren

Section62

Dave.44 said:

Linton said:

Dave.44 said:

In the UK we are substantially self sufficient in oil and gas. We are just not controlling the domestic market. 

It is more complex than that.  If you look up the oil data you will find that we export a lot of crude oil and import about the same amount.  Seems odd but a key reason is that crude oils from different fields are not the same.  The differences lead to different processing requirements and mean that some oils are better for particular products than others. 

So even though we do produce a lot of oil we are still dependent on the world market.

As crude oil is not very useful in its raw form the global market for processed products such as petrol and diesel is also important.  Apparently we only produce about 50%-60% of the diesel we use.  

Yes, I know that we export much of our oil and import the shortfall. We are still substantially self sufficient taking into account the net result.  I notice this morning that George Brown has the same ideas as myself and requesting government to consider. Look at costs of recovery for all oil companies operating in the North Sea as these are substantially unchanged, Look at profit levels and make sure they are not ridiculous. Put a temporary hold on energy cap. Control the Domestic market.

Lots of focus on oil, but (crude) oil isn't where the major problem lies.

'George' Brown is defaulting to the Old Labour 'nationalise everything' approach.  Effectively he is proposing the same approach as happened (quietly) to the railway system during the pandemic.  The result is neither cheaper rail fares, nor more reliable trains.  Instead we have what amount to the first national rail strikes in 25 years.

People's Christmases will be just super fantastic if one of the first actions of workers in the newly nationalised gas and electricity companies is to go on strike over cutbacks and insufficient pay rises.

We've tried (local) government intervention in the energy market - Robin Hood Energy provides us with a perfect case study on what happens when politicians believe they can do a better job than the private sector.

talexuser

So if private is best, including large profits and bonuses etc, what is the solution? Just wait until the world price comes down and those that can't manage should just fade away? This is a genuine question.

Tax cuts (NI etc) do not help the poorest, Doubling the £400 helps those that don't necessarily need it, I could weather these prices without a handout, so this seems a poor allocation of taxpayers money. And upping UC seems to be portrayed as mollicoddling the underserving poor nowadays.

Section62

talexuser said:

So if private is best, including large profits and bonuses etc, what is the solution? Just wait until the world price comes down and those that can't manage should just fade away? This is a genuine question.

The energy suppliers are not making "large profits".

The problem currently is with global energy supply and costs, whether the energy supply network in the UK is private or public won't change that situation.

The only difference it might make is in how government subsidy (to keep energy affordable) is accounted for within government.

The solution is a combination of measures, including reducing demand, and government subsidy or reduction in energy taxes and levies.

talexuser said:

Tax cuts (NI etc) do not help the poorest, Doubling the £400 helps those that don't necessarily need it, I could weather these prices without a handout, so this seems a poor allocation of taxpayers money. And upping UC seems to be portrayed as mollicoddling the underserving poor nowadays.

Which is why only £400 goes to everybody, and an extra £650 to "more than eight million low-income households"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61592496

This includes people on UC.

Strangely the £650 payment is almost never mentioned in the media, or by people predicting grannies freezing to death and/or riots on the street.

P1Fanatic

The problem with these payments towards energy costs & cost of living is there is no way to enforce the recipient to use it towards the actual bill in question. Already there is talk of a £1.2bn consumer energy bill debt and we are in the middle of summer. But how many who received the previous £150 payment actually put it towards their energy bill?

kaMelo

P1Fanatic said:

The problem with these payments towards energy costs & cost of living is there is no way to enforce the recipient to use it towards the actual bill in question. Already there is talk of a £1.2bn consumer energy bill debt and we are in the middle of summer. But how many who received the previous £150 payment actually put it towards their energy bill?

Well this woman certainly didn't.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-uses-150-council-tax-24132925