Returning "Non Returnable" T-Shirts.

Sandtree

FeaturelessVoid said:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11912308

An immediate problem

Registered office address

57a Broadway, Leigh On Sea, Essex, England, SS9 1PE

Not quite the same address as on the 9thvintag3e website...

Unit 53b
Thames Industrial Park
Princess Margaret Road
East Tilbury
Essex
RM18 8RH 
United Kingdom

Good luck suing a 25-year-old with no assets though.

I suspect Jordan Kieren Weller is already using your money up the wall.

How's that a problem? The registered address is the address for an accountancy firm. Its common practice for small companies to have their accountants as the registered address and the trading address to be different.

What is much more of a red flag that its a highly amateur setup is their T&Cs:

SECTION 18 - GOVERNING LAW

These Terms of Service and any separate agreements whereby we provide you Services shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of Unit 3b, Building 13, Thames Industrial Park, Princess Margaret Road East Tilbury GB RM18 8RH.

Who knew their building had declared themselves an independent legal jurisdiction to England?

The items are not bespoke to you and so you have a right of return. Enforcing that right may be difficult and not cost effective as clearly it is a micro-business and not being run with proper legal advice etc.

pinkshoes

I would write back to them informing them that you are not rejecting them because you don't like them, but because the size is incorrect.

I would show the t-shirt against another regular tshirt the same size to show that there is no way it is that size.

How did you pay?

Manxman_in_exile

It doesn't matter whether the OP's youngest simply doesn't like them or if they're the wrong size does it?  Either way they are entitled to return the T-shirts for a full refund and neither the "returns policy" of 97th Vintage nor the "laws" of Unit 3b* can take that legal right away from them.

I think the safest bet is a "change of mind" cancellation and return as given by the legislation here:  The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk).  The Mystery Box of T-shirts is not personalised and is not made to the customer's specifications so the exception relating to customised goods does not apply.

The OP's youngest needs to quote this legislation to the trader.  (Although the trader may well be trying to pull a fast one, it's also possible that they don't know the law**.  Lets give them an opportunity to learn something... 

The only issue might be whether the decision to cancel the order was clearly communicated to the trader within the cancellation period (see s32 of the legislation).  However, if the trader hasn't supplied certain information* to the consumer regarding their right to cancel the contract - and I presume they haven't if they've said this purchase is non-refundable - then the cancellation period is extended by a year (s32).

The consumer might also have an alternative right to return them under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 on the grounds that the goods do not conform to contract because they are not as described (wrong size or size not as described) but I think that arguments about sizing are always a bit subjective and debateable when it comes to saying that goods do not conform to contract because the size is not as expected (unless for example you clearly ordered XXXL but clearly received something sized S).

*Where are their T&Cs?  Apart from the misleading statement that these goods cannot be returned I can't find their T&Cs on the website.

** Has this trader come up before on this board?  Some of those photos and models look familiar.  Although they may be generic

pulliptears

If these are genuinely vintage then I'd expect the sizes to be slightly off, a size large today isn't the same as a vintage size large.  That said, that doesn't change your right to return.

Manxman_in_exile

pulliptears said:

If these are genuinely vintage then I'd expect the sizes to be slightly off, a size large today isn't the same as a vintage size large.  That said, that doesn't change your right to return.

That's one reason why I'm not certain I'd put much reliance on the size/not as described issue.

The OP says that they fit more like a lycra top than a T-shirt.  Last weekend I happened to be looking at some T-shirts I got from concerts I attended in the late 1970s.  They're a stated medium size but it's startling how small they are.  The point is that T-shirts from 40 years ago were worn VERY tight (almost skin tight) by everybody.

If you sign up to a mystery box of T-shirts of unknown vintage, it's quite possible that in order to get the vintage "look" that you desire, that you also have to accept a vintage fit.

But 97th Vintage should still have accepted the return as an online sale cancellation.  (I suspect the OP's youngest may not have made it 100% clear to them that they were exercising their statutory right to cancel.  That's why the law as I linked to earlier needs to be quoted to them)

Ergates

pulliptears said:

If these are genuinely vintage then I'd expect the sizes to be slightly off, a size large today isn't the same as a vintage size large.  That said, that doesn't change your right to return.

The size is almost certainly a dead and as "Small" doesn't really have any fixed definition - one brand's small isn't the same as another brand's small.  Which is why you try clothes on in the a shop before buying.   Which is why the short term right to cancel was put in place - to give you the same ability to try before you buy as you would in a physical shop

A website can put together whatever policies it likes, but if they're not enforceable they're meaningless.   A business can't just unilaterally declare that they're going to void a customer's statutory rights.

What's more - as I'm sure lunatic would like us to point out - businesses are obligated to inform customers of various thing including the fact that they're entitled to cancel an order up to 14 days after delivery.  If they don't do this (and telling customers you have a "strict no returns policy" would most definitely fall into that category) then they have 12 months to cancel the order.

In short:  The shop is full of "organic fertilizer" and have inadvertently extended your cancellation period by quite a lot.

kaMelo

Thanks everyone, the situation is kind of how I thought it was but good to see others confirm this and give me some very helpful pointers also.

I'm not exactly sure what the email says that he sent to the company on the 12th April. I know he said he wanted to return them and asked how to do so as there was no returns slip in the parcel, their emailed reply gave the returns address and said to include a note with the original order number. Whether he specified why he was returning them I don't know yet, I'll have to ask.  I'm pretty certain he didn't state he was exercising his statutory right to return.    Size ordered was XL which is what he received but when they're put alongside another of his XL T-Shirts they're just simply smaller all around.

I would tend to give the trader the benefit of the doubt at the moment, as in they don't know the law rather than trying to pull a fast one, but I could of course be completely wrong. I'll try to engage with them on a refund for now, giving them the "opportunity to learn."  Purchased with a debit card so whilst there is plenty of time to do so, I don't really want to go down the chargeback route just yet, mainly because it won't be me talking to the bank unless he can give me authority to speak to them on his behalf. I don't even know whether chargeback would work as he has received the parcel, twice,  but I'll try as a last resort if I have to. 

I'll write another email with help from the pointers given here, mentioning the legislation and that their terms can't override the rights its gives to return the items and see whether that gets their attention.

born_again

Personally not sure what chargeback you could use. 
As not faulty, & not as described, as size is as ordered. There is not one for change of mind or do not fit.
And no chargeback that covers your consumer rights. As chargebacks are over & above consumer rights.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

FeaturelessVoid said:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11912308

An immediate problem

Registered office address

57a Broadway, Leigh On Sea, Essex, England, SS9 1PE

Not quite the same address as on the 9thvintag3e website...

Unit 53b
Thames Industrial Park
Princess Margaret Road
East Tilbury
Essex
RM18 8RH 
United Kingdom

Good luck suing a 25-year-old with no assets though.

I suspect Jordan Kieren Weller is already using your money up the wall.

I didn't know you was connected to the company in question?

Grumpy_chap

As a distance purchase, the right for return is 14 days for any, or no, reason.  The OP requested the return well within that period.  I suspect the vendor simply does not know rather than trying to pull a "fast one".  

The website is inconsistent with regard to returns.  For the "mystery box" is does say strict no returns policy but then the returns tab acknowledges the 14 days rules.  Were the items returned with the company tags still in place?
https://97thvintage.com/products/t-shirt-acid-wash-mystery-box

If the OP paid by credit card, then the cc is liable to the same extent as the vendor.  Lodge an S75 claim.

I have to admit to finding the thread bemusing - some of my newest clothes are from the 1970's vintage so I guess I must be coming back in vogue.  I might bundle some up and flog them on - at £50 for two old T-Shirts I'll be able to buy some proper nice stuff on the High Street.