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CP Plus PCN/NTK


My wife received a NTK PCN for CP Plus from Parking CSL as the registered keeper of the vehicle. The PCN was issued 11th April, and she has received the NTK some time w/c 16th May (unsure as to the actual day as we were abroad).
Checking the app from the driver on the day, parking was paid at 10:22, the PCN is of course from 10:20. Not sure on when the driver parked so seems like there's no defence there. Supposedly there was a windscreen ticket but there wasn't one there when the driver returned to the car. Presumably CP Plus will have those pictures available.
Already appealed through Parking CSL's site using the boilerplate copy from the newbies thread, expecting that to be rejected so am draft the POPLA letter already. Appeal is as the registered keeper only and does not name the driver.
I have attached the letter to this thread, does the POFA defence stand in this NTK? I have read the newbies thread but cannot make out whether or not the defence can be used, if the PCN was issued 11th April and the NTK was sent on 11th May, this means they are compliant as it falls within 29 days?
What defences are there here via POPLA? Have included these two so far.
1. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
2. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself
Many thanks


Comments
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Yes, that's their POFA version that they use after a windscreen PCN.
You should be able to see all photos held when you log on and pretend to pay. That will show if a PCN was affixed (briefly) to the windscreen and how many minutes grace was given between photos.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Thanks Coupon-mad. I've logged on to their system and no pictures, just a loading icon. So either their website is broken (very possible) or they haven't got any pictures (which would seem odd?)
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Afternoon all,
CP Plus have rejected the appeal and have provided pictures of the ticket on the windscreen.Where do I go from here please? Not sure what points I can raise with POPLA as seems I cannot use the POFA defence.Many thanks0 -
How come the NTK is 'only' £60? Where is the location and what was the amount on the sign?
Is the discount still on offer, and how much is that.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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There is no discount available, this is the sign from the location, just says if you don’t pay, you’re liable for a £60 PCN. As mentioned there was no ticket on the car so wouldn’t know if a discount was available or not, but presumably that window would have passed.
The pictures they have supplied do show the ticket but there’s no ‘before’ picture, they show the car without a ticket at 10:19 then with a ticket at 10:20. I do not know what the grace period is (if there is one that is generically defined), but could the case be made the ticket was applied too early, meaning the driver did not have time to purchase a ticket (as they did at 10:22)?0 -
Wow I had to search for that £60! It's the last word of the smallprint. Not prominent at all (in breach of the CRA 2015) not in bold, not like the yellow Beavis case sign upheld by the Supreme Court as best practice.
That is a point POPLA will consider seriously.
As is lack of consideration period:Checking the app from the driver on the day, parking was paid at 10:22, the PCN is of course from 10:20. Not sure on when the driver parked so seems like there's no defence there.Quite the opposite.
They'd have to show POPLA that a sufficient consideration period was allowed and the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds is on record on the BPA website in an official article about consideration and grace periods, thus:
Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules."
https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periodsSupposedly there was a windscreen ticket but there wasn't one there when the driver returned to the car. Presumably CP Plus will have those pictures available.Don't assume. That argument (no windscreen PCN evidence) has legs at POPLA too, along with the fact that there is no evidence that the driver was ever offered the mandatory 40% discount - which is also not mentioned on the sign.
Not that it has to be on the sign, but the point is there's nothing to show that the driver was offered any discount or served with a PCN, far more likely the 'ticketer' never served the PCN at all, and just ran away and hid when they saw her returning to display her purchased ticket within 2 minutes.
Maybe this is going to be the new scam tactic? Ghost ticketing in droves? Charge 'only' £60 but don't leave a windscreen PCN, then you don't have to offer any discount and can force the keeper to pay the same £60 they would have been offered as the discount within a typical £100 postal PCN.
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Thanks Coupon-Mad.
The pictures provided from CP Plus do show the ticket on the windscreen so there definitely was one at some point, but I think there’s a good case for the lack of consideration period—the pictures they have provided show no ticket at 10:19, then their PCN at 10:20—so hopefully easy to argue that they cannot prove they have reasonable time for the driver to purchase a ticket. As you suggest, it would be ridiculous to assume that the driver would have purchased a ticket between the 2 minutes between the ticket being issued (PCN issued at 10:20:02, picture taken with ticket at ) and a valid ticket being purchased (at 10:22)
I feel there’s a good case here, I’ll
get to drafting the letter and post here for review. Will focus on poor signage and contravention of grace periods. Is it still worth adding the standard landowner authority and operator not proving keeper is the driver clauses?
Thanks again0 -
I'd allege ghost ticketing then, and put them to strict proof that this did not happen when the ticketer saw her returning. Surely there is no way that a passing stranger swiftly removed the PCN in the (what, 80 seconds?) between the ticketer taking his/her final photo and the driver coming back from the machine. Can you show how far away the machine was and state that the driver says there was a queue to pay?
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Ah sorry I hadn’t said (I thought I did), the driver paid via app not via machine. I suggest the same defence still stands, however, that the driver was clearly paying for parking whilst walking to their destination after leaving their car.The driver also paid for 8 hours of parking which would seem foolish if they were intent on trying to dodge paying for parking.0
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Yp but don't say they walked off site before paying (you don't know that and if's a problem so don't say it). Just adapt the queue argument for how long it took to download the app.
The rest still stands and is in addition to what you'll have already read in the NEWBIES thread 3rd Post, where POPLA is explained, with example appeals.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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