Tripping oven

Bendy_House

Danny30 said:

Bendy_House said:

Danny, the ONLY thing that trips the RCD is when the upper oven thermostat is turned up? Ie, it doesn't trip with just the oven light, or even when the actual oven itself is first 'selected', but trips when the temp selector is then turned up to 'click' point?

This upper oven has a grill element? And when it's set to 'oven' (ie convection), I'm guessing two elements come on, the grill and one under the base?

The fault is in the element that you didn't replace

Ok, that's clearly only a guess... But these nuisance RCD trips are almost always due to a leaky element, ie one that's starting to fail, or perhaps hasn't been used for a good while and has become damp (more rare).

Make and model of oven?

Thank you Bendy, I can't see any other elements. The oven is a Belling BI702FPCT (444444783). 

Fair point, badger, but elements are considered 'consumables', I'm pretty sure, so unlikely to be covered.

Danny, can you confirm it's as I asked, please - the RCD only trips when you actually turn up the thermostat to where it 'clicks'?

That top oven does have two elements - or even three if I'm pedantic (perish the thought...). The top grill has two sections, and when you select the whole oven, both come on along with the bottom element, which will likely be hidden under the oven floor.

Which element have you replaced?

That's a very decent oven, currently retailing at over £500. Worth a stab. :-)

When I had a similar hair-pulling* episode with my ancient Indesit with this very issue, one of the folk who guided me towards the cause (yup, an element) also suggested that in might not even be the fault of the actual element you are turning on, because they are all joined via their Neutrals, so turning on an 'ok' element could sometimes trip the oven via a leakage through an unused element. I suspect that this won't, actually, be the case, but just mentioning it for interest, and to see what knowledgable folk on here think of this possibility?

*I'd half-dismantled the whole bludy oven as I'd convinced myself it was the cooling fan, the only 'common' part to the symptom :-(

Danny30

Bendy_House said:

Danny30 said:

Bendy_House said:

Danny, the ONLY thing that trips the RCD is when the upper oven thermostat is turned up? Ie, it doesn't trip with just the oven light, or even when the actual oven itself is first 'selected', but trips when the temp selector is then turned up to 'click' point?

This upper oven has a grill element? And when it's set to 'oven' (ie convection), I'm guessing two elements come on, the grill and one under the base?

The fault is in the element that you didn't replace

Ok, that's clearly only a guess... But these nuisance RCD trips are almost always due to a leaky element, ie one that's starting to fail, or perhaps hasn't been used for a good while and has become damp (more rare).

Make and model of oven?

Thank you Bendy, I can't see any other elements. The oven is a Belling BI702FPCT (444444783). 

Fair point, badger, but elements are considered 'consumables', I'm pretty sure, so unlikely to be covered.

Danny, can you confirm it's as I asked, please - the RCD only trips when you actually turn up the thermostat to where it 'clicks'?

That top oven does have two elements - or even three if I'm pedantic (perish the thought...). The top grill has two sections, and when you select the whole oven, both come on along with the bottom element, which will likely be hidden under the oven floor.

Which element have you replaced?

That's a very decent oven, currently retailing at over £500. Worth a stab. :-)

When I had a similar hair-pulling* episode with my ancient Indesit with this very issue, one of the folk who guided me towards the cause (yup, an element) also suggested that in might not even be the fault of the actual element you are turning on, because they are all joined via their Neutrals, so turning on an 'ok' element could sometimes trip the oven via a leakage through an unused element. I suspect that this won't, actually, be the case, but just mentioning it for interest, and to see what knowledgable folk on here think of this possibility?

*I'd half-dismantled the whole bludy oven as I'd convinced myself it was the cooling fan, the only 'common' part to the symptom :-(

Hi Bendy, the oven trips as soon as I move the upper oven dial onto the oven symbol (See highlight on image below) . It doesn't trip when turning up the thermostat. I was also able to run the upper oven grill for a few mins before it tripped (which used the same element I replaced), so the only thing that trips it straight away is turning the dial onto the oven symbol.

I changed the element on the top of the upper oven which I managed to get for a good price so thought it was worth a try, but it didn't help unfortunately.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

When I had a similar hair-pulling* episode with my ancient Indesit with this very issue, one of the folk who guided me towards the cause (yup, an element) also suggested that in might not even be the fault of the actual element you are turning on, because they are all joined via their Neutrals, so turning on an 'ok' element could sometimes trip the oven via a leakage through an unused element. I suspect that this won't, actually, be the case, but just mentioning it for interest, and to see what knowledgable folk on here think of this possibility?

*I'd half-dismantled the whole bludy oven as I'd convinced myself it was the cooling fan, the only 'common' part to the symptom :-(

It is plausible that current could go Element -> Common neutral point -> Faulty element -> Appliance 'earth' -> CPC -> MET -> [installation earthing arrangement].

If the resistance of that path is sufficiently low relative to the correct path of Common neutral point -> Neutral Conductor -> RCD -> [supply], then in principle you could get enough leakage current to operate the trip.

But at that point you'd want to call in an electrician PDQ because it may suggest a potentially serious fault with the 'neutral' side of the installation.

It would be one of those situations where a DIY fix of an immediately obvious fault - without doing the testing that a professional would - could result in a non-obvious fault going undetected.

Section62

Danny30 said:

I changed the element on the top of the upper oven which I managed to get for a good price so thought it was worth a try, but it didn't help unfortunately.

Was it a guaranteed genuine part, or something eyewateringly cheap from an online supplier?

It is possible the new element is faulty too.

As I said earlier in the thread, without the tools and expertise the only approach is to swap parts out until the fault goes away.... and sometimes that means swapping the same part more than once.  It can rapidly get expensive.

victor2

Could be as simple as a fault in the oven dial or wiring to it, but equally could be a problem buried deep in the appliance. But the RCD tripping is telling you there is a fault.

A good electrician may be able to sort it out, but the cost in labour and any parts required could unfortunately make that an expensive fix.

When the oven fan in our old (well out of warranty) Rangemaster stove failed, I contacted Rangemaster, who put me onto their recommended company for repair. They diagnosed the problem (not difficult, fan not turning!) over the phone and for a fixed fee sent a man out to repair it, no matter what parts were needed. I think it was £75 and that was a good few years back. Fan cost a lot less than that, but the job was done and it is still working. Might be worth contacting Belling to see what they can suggest.

Danny30

Section62 said:

Danny30 said:

I changed the element on the top of the upper oven which I managed to get for a good price so thought it was worth a try, but it didn't help unfortunately.

Was it a guaranteed genuine part, or something eyewateringly cheap from an online supplier?

It is possible the new element is faulty too.

As I said earlier in the thread, without the tools and expertise the only approach is to swap parts out until the fault goes away.... and sometimes that means swapping the same part more than once.  It can rapidly get expensive.

It was a genuine part

Bendy_House

Danny30 said:

Hi Bendy, the oven trips as soon as I move the upper oven dial onto the oven symbol (See highlight on image below) . It doesn't trip when turning up the thermostat. I was also able to run the upper oven grill for a few mins before it tripped (which used the same element I replaced), so the only thing that trips it straight away is turning the dial onto the oven symbol.

I changed the element on the top of the upper oven which I managed to get for a good price so thought it was worth a try, but it didn't help unfortunately.

As S62 says, some of these elements are cheap for a reason - I have also found that to my cost. The last time my main oven element went - only a few months after fitting a cheapy - I went 'reputable' supplier. And it was still very good value, and still going strong.

Ok, I wasn't hoping for your answer about what setting makes the RCD trip, until I recalled - with a horrible neck-tingle - that this was the very symptom that drove me nuts, and made me start to dismantle the oven! With mine, I now recall the thermostat didn't need turning up either, so my hapless brain convinced itself it had to be another component that was common to all the oven settings, so my suspicions landed on the cooling fan. I disconnected that and... it kept tripping.

I sought help on a leccy forum, and all the replies said the same - an oven element. I then disconnected all the elements, taping up (and labelling!) the loose terminals, and tried the oven on each setting. No tripping. Replaced each element in turn, until 'pop'. Looked closely at the miscreant element, and noticed a bulge on the side...

Danny, since you are clearly DIYish enough to swap an oven element, and so far without 'cuting yourself, I really think this is worth a go. Since no heat will be involved, it'll be perfectly fine if you tape up the spade terminals and position them where they won't move or touch anything whilst you briefly turn the oven on each time to test. The ONE VERY POSSIBLE danger is that you become COMPLACENT when doing this, because there will be REPEATED power-isolation and power-on sequences each time you reconnect an element, and that's when mistakes happen.

So, BIG MANTRA: OFF at the CU, OFF at the wallplate, TEST with, er, a tester.

Oven oot, back offski, remove each element's spades, tape them up, label them, tape them to a nearby thingy to keep them from moving. Repeat for all three top oven elements.

ON at CU, ON at w/p, turn on t'oven. If it doesn't go 'pop', then holler loudly and do a wee dance - AFTER turning it all off again.

POWER OFF x 2, and replace one element's connections (say the bottom element, since you haven't replaced that one). 

Rinse, repeat, but don't get in a lather.

A bottom element is around £25, and you'll feel really good if this sorts it. Yes, it could be down to another issue, but that would be very unlikely in an oven, and it's sooo easy to eliminate the obvious - as long as you do so safely.

Danny30

Bendy_House said:

Danny30 said:

Hi Bendy, the oven trips as soon as I move the upper oven dial onto the oven symbol (See highlight on image below) . It doesn't trip when turning up the thermostat. I was also able to run the upper oven grill for a few mins before it tripped (which used the same element I replaced), so the only thing that trips it straight away is turning the dial onto the oven symbol.

I changed the element on the top of the upper oven which I managed to get for a good price so thought it was worth a try, but it didn't help unfortunately.

As S62 says, some of these elements are cheap for a reason - I have also found that to my cost. The last time my main oven element went - only a few months after fitting a cheapy - I went 'reputable' supplier. And it was still very good value, and still going strong.

Ok, I wasn't hoping for your answer about what setting makes the RCD trip, until I recalled - with a horrible neck-tingle - that this was the very symptom that drove me nuts, and made me start to dismantle the oven! With mine, I now recall the thermostat didn't need turning up either, so my hapless brain convinced itself it had to be another component that was common to all the oven settings, so my suspicions landed on the cooling fan. I disconnected that and... it kept tripping.

I sought help on a leccy forum, and all the replies said the same - an oven element. I then disconnected all the elements, taping up (and labelling!) the loose terminals, and tried the oven on each setting. No tripping. Replaced each element in turn, until 'pop'. Looked closely at the miscreant element, and noticed a bulge on the side...

Danny, since you are clearly DIYish enough to swap an oven element, and so far without 'cuting yourself, I really think this is worth a go. Since no heat will be involved, it'll be perfectly fine if you tape up the spade terminals and position them where they won't move or touch anything whilst you briefly turn the oven on each time to test. The ONE VERY POSSIBLE danger is that you become COMPLACENT when doing this, because there will be REPEATED power-isolation and power-on sequences each time you reconnect an element, and that's when mistakes happen.

So, BIG MANTRA: OFF at the CU, OFF at the wallplate, TEST with, er, a tester.

Oven oot, back offski, remove each element's spades, tape them up, label them, tape them to a nearby thingy to keep them from moving. Repeat for all three top oven elements.

ON at CU, ON at w/p, turn on t'oven. If it doesn't go 'pop', then holler loudly and do a wee dance - AFTER turning it all off again.

POWER OFF x 2, and replace one element's connections (say the bottom element, since you haven't replaced that one). 

Rinse, repeat, but don't get in a lather.

A bottom element is around £25, and you'll feel really good if this sorts it. Yes, it could be down to another issue, but that would be very unlikely in an oven, and it's sooo easy to eliminate the obvious - as long as you do so safely.

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I just called up Belling a few minutes ago and told them the symptoms as described above and they said it would be either the element on the top, the cooling fan or the top oven switch. As I changed the element and I am pretty sure the cooling fan is working (double check when I get home) it must be the top switch then. How complicated is that to change?

Section62

Danny30 said:

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I just called up Belling a few minutes ago and told them the symptoms as described above and they said it would be either the element on the top, the cooling fan or the top oven switch. As I changed the element and I am pretty sure the cooling fan is working (double check when I get home) it must be the top switch then. How complicated is that to change?

Or the/an element.  Don't fall into the trap of "I've changed this, so it can't be that".  If you follow that route you can end up paying more for parts than it would cost for a pro to do the repair.

It is probably significant that switching to oven causes immediate tripping, whereas the grill setting causes a delayed tripping.  If you turn the grill back on straight away (while the element is still hot) does it trip the CU out again after the same amount of time, or faster/slower than the first time?

Danny30

Section62 said:

Danny30 said:

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I just called up Belling a few minutes ago and told them the symptoms as described above and they said it would be either the element on the top, the cooling fan or the top oven switch. As I changed the element and I am pretty sure the cooling fan is working (double check when I get home) it must be the top switch then. How complicated is that to change?

Or the/an element.  Don't fall into the trap of "I've changed this, so it can't be that".  If you follow that route you can end up paying more for parts than it would cost for a pro to do the repair.

It is probably significant that switching to oven causes immediate tripping, whereas the grill setting causes a delayed tripping.  If you turn the grill back on straight away (while the element is still hot) does it trip the CU out again after the same amount of time, or faster/slower than the first time?

Not sure. I will check when I get home later and get back to you. I mentioned if it could be another element and they discounted that option.

Also, if it was the switch, would it not trip when I use it on any function and not just the oven function?