Help - where do we go from here?

FTB2912

Hi, first time buyer here so excuse my lack of knowledge! 

We are in the process of buying our first house but have now stumbled upon an issue no one seems to know how to resolve. It’s a probate sale, the house belonged to an elderly lady. When she passed away, power of attorney was given to her brother to sell the property. Unfortunately he then passed away as well shortly thereafter and now it’s the elderly lady’s niece who is dealing with the sale. The niece unfortunately has no knowledge or any information on the property which doesn’t make things easier. 

Our solicitor has flagged that a search with the local council has come back saying that there was an application filed for underpinning of front bay and elevation which was received by the council in 2004. They checked with the executor (owner’s niece) and she has no knowledge of any underpinning and subsidence issues. She also has no insurance information and does not know who the previous insurer of the property was so we cannot look at previous insurance history/claims. When inquiring further with the council, they confirmed an application was filed in 2004 but that their records indicate that a completion certificate was never issued for this application which from my understanding could mean:

1. the owner has filed an application and never done any work

2. the owner has done work but never filed any documentation relating to the completion of works 

Our solicitors aren’t the most helpful and advised it’s not uncommon for work to be undertaken and completion documentation not being filed with the council. They are trying to find out more information from the council but the council are notoriously slow with their responses. Our solicitors also advised that we need to know whether the house has been underpinned as they would need to let our lender know. 

We spoke to a structural engineer whether there would be a way to find out a house has been underpinned and he advised underpinning is not seen on a visual inspection as it’s concealed below ground. The only way to find out is to dig a deep hole which would costs thousands of pounds, not something I can imagine the executor agreeing to and paying for. We’ve had a level 3 RICS survey done which states that the property is in a reasonably good structural state of repair and didn’t flag any major issues.

Is there another way we could find out if the house we are buying has been underpinned? Or has anyone come across a similar situation? 

Any advice as to best way to proceed, or any thoughts/suggestions welcome!

newsgroupmonkey_

I'm no expert, but surely if you do or don't know that it's been underpinned and you've done your best to try and find out, that you can assume it wasn't?

Might be worth getting an insurance quote (You'll need it for when you exchange anyway, not complete), and see if it's excessively high or gets picked up.

canaldumidi

Might be worth amending your thread title to something that indicates what kind of question you have..

FTB2912 said:

.... It’s a probate sale, the house belonged to an elderly lady. When she passed away, power of attorney was given to her brother to sell the property.

Impossible. POA ends when the person dies.If the brother was selling under a POA he had no legal right to do so.

Might he be the Executor of her will?

 Unfortunately he then passed away as well shortly thereafter and now it’s the elderly lady’s niece who is dealing with the sale.

By what right? Is she a named Executor? Or has she applied for and be granted Administrator rights?

Before buying, make sure the seller has the right to sell. Also make sure Probate has been granted.....

The niece unfortunately has no knowledge or any information on the property which doesn’t make things easier.  very common with probate sales.

Our solicitor has flagged that a search with the local council has come back saying that there was an application filed for underpinning of front bay and elevation which was received by the council in 2004. They checked with the executor (owner’s niece) and she has no knowledge of any underpinning and subsidence issues.Not surrising.

She also has no insurance information and does not know who the previous insurer of the property was so we cannot look at previous insurance history/claims. When inquiring further with the council, they confirmed an application was filed in 2004 but that their records indicate that a completion certificate was never issued for this application which from my understanding could mean:

1. the owner has filed an application and never done any work

2. the owner has done work but never filed any documentation relating to the completion of works 

Our solicitors aren’t the most helpful and advised it’s not uncommon for work to be undertaken and completion documentation not being filed with the council. True

They are trying to find out more information from the council but the council are notoriously slow with their responses.

Unlikely the council will know any more than they've already divulged.

Our solicitors also advised that we need to know whether the house has been underpinned as they would need to let our lender know.

True. Have the solicitors said what they willdo regarding the lender if they get no further with their enquiries?

We spoke to a structural engineer whether there would be a way to find out a house has been underpinned and he advised underpinning is not seen on a visual inspection as it’s concealed below ground. The only way to find out is to dig a deep hole which would costs thousands of pounds, not something I can imagine the executor agreeing to and paying for. We’ve had a level 3 RICS survey done which states that the property is in a reasonably good structural state of repair and didn’t flag any major issues.

A structural engineer could also report on whether there is any sign of subsidence. This would not require digging.

Is there another way we could find out if the house we are buying has been underpinned? Or has anyone come across a similar situation?

ask the neighbours? If they lived there in 2004-5 they would have noticed the work! Or even discussed it with the owner. I assume you have already spoken to them anyway yes?

user1977

Is the application definitely filed under the correct property? Does it name the deceased as the applicant?

FTB2912

canaldumidi said:

Might be worth amending your thread title to something that indicates what kind of question you have..

FTB2912 said:

.... It’s a probate sale, the house belonged to an elderly lady. When she passed away, power of attorney was given to her brother to sell the property.

Impossible. POA ends when the person dies.If the brother was selling under a POA he had no legal right to do so.

Might he be the Executor of her will? Sorry probably have been using wrong terminology as I'm not familiar with the legal jargon. The brother was given the legal right to sell the property. 

Unfortunately he then passed away as well shortly thereafter and now it’s the elderly lady’s niece who is dealing with the sale.

By what right? Is she a named Executor? Or has she applied for and be granted Administrator rights?

Before buying, make sure the seller has the right to sell. Also make sure Probate has been granted..... 
She was given the legal right to sell the property. Probate has been granted. 

The niece unfortunately has no knowledge or any information on the property which doesn’t make things easier.  very common with probate sales.

Our solicitor has flagged that a search with the local council has come back saying that there was an application filed for underpinning of front bay and elevation which was received by the council in 2004. They checked with the executor (owner’s niece) and she has no knowledge of any underpinning and subsidence issues.Not surrising.

She also has no insurance information and does not know who the previous insurer of the property was so we cannot look at previous insurance history/claims. When inquiring further with the council, they confirmed an application was filed in 2004 but that their records indicate that a completion certificate was never issued for this application which from my understanding could mean:

1. the owner has filed an application and never done any work

2. the owner has done work but never filed any documentation relating to the completion of works 

Our solicitors aren’t the most helpful and advised it’s not uncommon for work to be undertaken and completion documentation not being filed with the council. True Is it common for major building work to be completed such as underpinning and not file the completion documentation? I'm just thinking if someone makes the effort to put in an application surely they would then follow up with what was actually done? 

They are trying to find out more information from the council but the council are notoriously slow with their responses.Unlikely the council will know any more than they've already divulged.

Our solicitors also advised that we need to know whether the house has been underpinned as they would need to let our lender know.True. Have the solicitors said what they willdo regarding the lender if they get no further with their enquiries? They haven't said what they will do, only that we should wait for the council to come back and for us to check with a structural engineer. 

We spoke to a structural engineer whether there would be a way to find out a house has been underpinned and he advised underpinning is not seen on a visual inspection as it’s concealed below ground. The only way to find out is to dig a deep hole which would costs thousands of pounds, not something I can imagine the executor agreeing to and paying for. We’ve had a level 3 RICS survey done which states that the property is in a reasonably good structural state of repair and didn’t flag any major issues.

A structural engineer could also report on whether there is any sign of subsidence. This would not require digging. We've had a full survey done and the surveyor didn't have any major concerns and didn't flag any subsidence issues. 

Is there another way we could find out if the house we are buying has been underpinned? Or has anyone come across a similar situation?

ask the neighbours? If they lived there in 2004-5 they would have noticed the work! Or even discussed it with the owner. I assume you have already spoken to them anyway yes? Yes, we've tried to find out further information by speaking to neighbours but couldn't get any more information, both immediate neighbours bought the property 2008 and after. 

Thank you for coming back on this, really appreciate it. I've added my comments above. 

DE_612183

I would think that whoever is selling the house will come across this issue whoever they try to sell to - at the end of the day the costs will come out of the sale anyway.

I'd try working together with the seller - perhaps agree on a price if it is underpinned and one if it isn't - then get the check done and move on.

FTB2912

user1977 said:

Is the application definitely filed under the correct property? Does it name the deceased as the applicant?

Yes it's the correct property unfortunately. We've been forwarded a response letter from the council to our solicitor saying:

Re: Property Address

An application was received for the works as described below:
Application Number - XXXXXX
Received 27th August 2004
Description of works - Underpinning of front bay elevation. 

Our records indicates that a completion certificate was never issued for this application; if you have any further enquiries with regard to the above, please contact ehe Building Control Surveyor at xxxxxxx@xxxx

FTB2912

DE_612183 said:

I would think that whoever is selling the house will come across this issue whoever they try to sell to - at the end of the day the costs will come out of the sale anyway.

I'd try working together with the seller - perhaps agree on a price if it is underpinned and one if it isn't - then get the check done and move on.

Thank you for your comment. We were hoping not to go down that route as it will take time to get that done (structural surveyor said there are delays in works as there is a huge demand at the moment) and it might be a month or more time to arrange for any digging work. It's also costly and I'm not sure the seller would agree to this to be honest. 

ciderboy2009

So, just under 20 years ago there may have been some some underpinning done.

Are there any signs of subsidence?  If not then there is a good chance that it was done and it's fixed the problem (I would have expected to see signs in 20 years if it hadn't fixed the problem).

Personally I wouldn't be losing any sleep over this unless there are signs of subsidence.

Slinky

Exactly as ciderboy says. It was either subsiding and has been fixed, or wasn't subsiding and hasn't been fixed because it didn't need it. More likely the first as there is the contact with the council.

Your issue will be insurance. Our house has an extension which was underpinned 27 years before we bought it. We don't know the cause. The insurance companies in the main seem to calm down at 25 years. You will need to consult a specialist broker, stick it into Compare the Market and you'll be lucky to get any quotes at all. We have a normal premium and a standard £1K excess, because of it being more than 25 years ago, but the property will forever carry a marker about the subsidence. Even if, for example, it was a garage which had subsequently been demolished. It's just how the insurance market works.

Have you tried getting a quote yet? James & Lindsay in Colchester found a decent policy for us.

Slinky

Another thought. Our subsidence came to light when the surveyor went and spoke to the neighbours who were living here when the work was done and they told him. It could be worth knocking on a few doors to find somebody who lived in the street at the time and who may remember seeing work being done.