Disciplinary hearing 13 May 2022 at 7:43AM in Employment, jobseeking & training 10 replies 627 views

Sharleeker

I have been subject to a disciplinary hearing and two points were upheld. One that a colleague said that I was hostile but I disputed this and I have now made a counter complaint that they were hostile to me on this and other occasions. The other being that I called a colleague lazy to our manager but I later apologised for this remark and said that I should have that they don’t work as hard as the rest of us. I did not make this remark to the colleague. I now have a written warning, is this worth challenging?  Many thanks

gwynlas

No there;s been an investigation and meeting that upheld two points meaning that there were probably others. You might feel very aggrieved that you did not make the remark but unless you have evidence other than your word you should consider the matter closed. Having a disciplinary hearing concluding in a written warning is obviously quite serious so you need to keep your head down and get on with the job. If you have been there less than two years then you are lucky they did not dismiss you as investigations and  convening disciplinary meetings takes up management time, the fact that they bothered to take the time indicates they appear to be a fair employer.

Jillanddy

I agree no - you did what you were accused off. Having "good reasons" for doing it doesn't change what you did. If a colleague is doing something wrong such as being hostile you report the incident to your line manager or supervisor. You do not take matters into your own hands. Only raising their (alleged) behaviour when you have been accused of doing it does not make your account believable - it comes across as "you complained about me so I'll complain about you". And it is not your role to call people lazy to anyone, and neither is it your role to say that they don't work as hard as you think they should. If they are not doing their job to the managers satisfaction, then the manager should deal with it. If they don't see there is anything to deal with, then stay out of what is not your business.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that a manager bothered to discipline your for the "lazy" comment rather than doing what I have just done - tell you to mind your own work and your own business. Which would make me wonder if there is more that them using this than meets the eye. Perhaps they see you as a trouble maker / gossip . problem and you handed them a good excuse to be able to act. I would suggest that you look to your own conduct and business, and not that of others, because the manager may not be distraught if they had to let you go. 

Sharleeker

Jillanddy said:

I agree no - you did what you were accused off. Having "good reasons" for doing it doesn't change what you did. If a colleague is doing something wrong such as being hostile you report the incident to your line manager or supervisor. You do not take matters into your own hands. Only raising their (alleged) behaviour when you have been accused of doing it does not make your account believable - it comes across as "you complained about me so I'll complain about you". And it is not your role to call people lazy to anyone, and neither is it your role to say that they don't work as hard as you think they should. If they are not doing their job to the managers satisfaction, then the manager should deal with it. If they don't see there is anything to deal with, then stay out of what is not your business.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that a manager bothered to discipline your for the "lazy" comment rather than doing what I have just done - tell you to mind your own work and your own business. Which would make me wonder if there is more that them using this than meets the eye. Perhaps they see you as a trouble maker / gossip . problem and you handed them a good excuse to be able to act. I would suggest that you look to your own conduct and business, and not that of others, because the manager may not be distraught if they had to let you go. 

Thank you for your comments, however, it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared. 

Undervalued

Sharleeker said:

Jillanddy said:

I agree no - you did what you were accused off. Having "good reasons" for doing it doesn't change what you did. If a colleague is doing something wrong such as being hostile you report the incident to your line manager or supervisor. You do not take matters into your own hands. Only raising their (alleged) behaviour when you have been accused of doing it does not make your account believable - it comes across as "you complained about me so I'll complain about you". And it is not your role to call people lazy to anyone, and neither is it your role to say that they don't work as hard as you think they should. If they are not doing their job to the managers satisfaction, then the manager should deal with it. If they don't see there is anything to deal with, then stay out of what is not your business.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that a manager bothered to discipline your for the "lazy" comment rather than doing what I have just done - tell you to mind your own work and your own business. Which would make me wonder if there is more that them using this than meets the eye. Perhaps they see you as a trouble maker / gossip . problem and you handed them a good excuse to be able to act. I would suggest that you look to your own conduct and business, and not that of others, because the manager may not be distraught if they had to let you go. 

Thank you for your comments, however, it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared. 

Probably just covering their own backs. It doesn't automatically mean the complaint will be upheld.

In a work disciplinary situation the employer only needs to make a layman's attempt at conducting a fair process and form a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place. It is not a court of law.

Jillanddy

Undervalued said:

Sharleeker said:

Jillanddy said:

I agree no - you did what you were accused off. Having "good reasons" for doing it doesn't change what you did. If a colleague is doing something wrong such as being hostile you report the incident to your line manager or supervisor. You do not take matters into your own hands. Only raising their (alleged) behaviour when you have been accused of doing it does not make your account believable - it comes across as "you complained about me so I'll complain about you". And it is not your role to call people lazy to anyone, and neither is it your role to say that they don't work as hard as you think they should. If they are not doing their job to the managers satisfaction, then the manager should deal with it. If they don't see there is anything to deal with, then stay out of what is not your business.

On a side note, I am rather surprised that a manager bothered to discipline your for the "lazy" comment rather than doing what I have just done - tell you to mind your own work and your own business. Which would make me wonder if there is more that them using this than meets the eye. Perhaps they see you as a trouble maker / gossip . problem and you handed them a good excuse to be able to act. I would suggest that you look to your own conduct and business, and not that of others, because the manager may not be distraught if they had to let you go. 

Thank you for your comments, however, it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared. 

Probably just covering their own backs. It doesn't automatically mean the complaint will be upheld.

In a work disciplinary situation the employer only needs to make a layman's attempt at conducting a fair process and form a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place. It is not a court of law.

Quite. If they thought that "the information shared" was of any interest, or offered a mitigation, then the OP wouldn't be here with a written warning. They are, effectively, saying what I said in retrospect - if someone else is acting inappropriately then the correct response is to report it, not retaliate. 

I guess it does depend on workplace culture, but based on what appear to be rather insignificant issues that could easily be dealt with by far less than a written warning, in the OP's shoes I would be looking to stay well off their radar, because I still think this is overkill unless they have it in for the OP. As a manager I have occasionally heard the "XXX is lazy/ not working" or whatever, and my response has always been to say that I will deal with employee performance and they don't need to concern themselves with it. I can't imagine even thinking about disciplining someone for such a comment. And I can't see many managers who would. Most of us have better things to do than discipline people for such small potatoes. 

TELLIT01

All the OP can do is choose their words more carefully in future.  If they are concerned about the performance of others, they may wish to raise it at their 1-2-1 or appraisal, but if the manager tells them to do their job and allow the manager to manage, that's the end of it. 

I agree that disciplining somebody for raising a concern is ridiculous.  The most likely outcome is that person will no longer raise any concern, even when it is totally valid.

My wife constantly gets wound up about other people not pulling their weight and my response is always the same - there is nothing you can do as the manager does know/should know the situation.  Just do your own job and stop worrying about what others are getting away with.  I've suggested that she slows down at work but that falls on deaf ears.  Stats I've seen show that both the quantity and quality of work my wife does support her belief but that really isn't relevant.

MalMonroe

If it were me I'd contact Acas because what you say in your OP is concerning.  https://www.acas.org.uk/

Your employer is relying strictly on hearsay. He said, she said. Somebody has to prove something positively before you can be warned.

It doesn't seem to me, from what you say, that you have been treated fairly and if you do just get some advice from acas you may be able to nip this matter in the bud before it escalates and you are being shoved out of the door. Worth a try, anyway. 

I'm guessing you don't have a union? If you did that would be another place to get advice.

Yes, I definitely would challenge the written warning because you say " it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared" and also, your employer appears to have issued it on the flimsiest of hearsay evidence. 

Also, did your employee follow the correct procedures, as advised by acas in the following link?  

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step

NCC1701-A

MalMonroe said:

If it were me I'd contact Acas because what you say in your OP is concerning.  https://www.acas.org.uk/

Your employer is relying strictly on hearsay. He said, she said. Somebody has to prove something positively before you can be warned.

It doesn't seem to me, from what you say, that you have been treated fairly and if you do just get some advice from acas you may be able to nip this matter in the bud before it escalates and you are being shoved out of the door. Worth a try, anyway. 

I'm guessing you don't have a union? If you did that would be another place to get advice.

Yes, I definitely would challenge the written warning because you say " it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared" and also, your employer appears to have issued it on the flimsiest of hearsay evidence. 

Also, did your employee follow the correct procedures, as advised by acas in the following link?  

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step

OP, you can safely ignore the above. ACAS have zero role in internal disciplinary procedures, they can only come into play if you've been sacked or resigned. Internal procedures do NOT have the same rigour as a criminal court and an investigating person can attach more weight to one person's statement than another (depending on all the circumstances).  If you follow the above advice, you will just be marking yourself out instead of taking the written warning on the chin.

Jillanddy

NCC1701-A said:

MalMonroe said:

If it were me I'd contact Acas because what you say in your OP is concerning.  https://www.acas.org.uk/

Your employer is relying strictly on hearsay. He said, she said. Somebody has to prove something positively before you can be warned.

It doesn't seem to me, from what you say, that you have been treated fairly and if you do just get some advice from acas you may be able to nip this matter in the bud before it escalates and you are being shoved out of the door. Worth a try, anyway. 

I'm guessing you don't have a union? If you did that would be another place to get advice.

Yes, I definitely would challenge the written warning because you say " it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared" and also, your employer appears to have issued it on the flimsiest of hearsay evidence. 

Also, did your employee follow the correct procedures, as advised by acas in the following link?  

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step

OP, you can safely ignore the above. ACAS have zero role in internal disciplinary procedures, they can only come into play if you've been sacked or resigned. Internal procedures do NOT have the same rigour as a criminal court and an investigating person can attach more weight to one person's statement than another (depending on all the circumstances).  If you follow the above advice, you will just be marking yourself out instead of taking the written warning on the chin.

200% supported. Take that advice and (a) you will be following incorrect and very unwise advice,  and (b) you can,  if your employer finds out,  expect your second warning (at least) rather soon.  Employers do not have to treat you "fairly". They must treat you fairly in law. Those are very different things. There is absolutely nothing at all in your posts to suggest the employer has acted unfairly in law. There's actually quite a lot to say they have.  Which is all irrelevant because neither ACAS nor a tribunal,  nor any court of law can do anything about any disciplinary sanction less than dismissal. 

Undervalued

MalMonroe said:

If it were me I'd contact Acas because what you say in your OP is concerning.  https://www.acas.org.uk/

Your employer is relying strictly on hearsay. He said, she said. Somebody has to prove something positively before you can be warned.

It doesn't seem to me, from what you say, that you have been treated fairly and if you do just get some advice from acas you may be able to nip this matter in the bud before it escalates and you are being shoved out of the door. Worth a try, anyway. 

I'm guessing you don't have a union? If you did that would be another place to get advice.

Yes, I definitely would challenge the written warning because you say " it has been advised in the written report that I make my own complaint due to the information shared" and also, your employer appears to have issued it on the flimsiest of hearsay evidence. 

Also, did your employee follow the correct procedures, as advised by acas in the following link?  

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step

As has been pointed out to you many times, there are no longer statutory procedures, only guidelines.

And no, somebody does not have "to prove something positively" An employer needs a "reasonable belief", that is all. 

Still, there is at least one bit in all your posts that is correct.....

In the signature line at the bottom "Remember, don't rely on what you are reading. Verify it and protect yourself."