Parking Ticket from UKPC - Not driving at the time

JustAnotherFella

Hi people, 

Please help! I have read all the newbie stuff and think I know what to do but have a slightly different situation which I am not sure changes the approach I should take. Thank you for taking the time to read and any advice given. 

I had my sister in law and a travel partner visit a couple of months ago, she was on an extended travelling 'holiday' and they had been travelling around the UK from South Africa for the past few months. The partner she was travelling with at the time used my vehicle a couple of times in the 2 weeks they were staying with us. We came back from a 2 week holiday ourselves last week and I have received a NTK for the vehicle not being parked correctly in a bay at a local shopping centre. This is the first I have heard of this (am furious!) and from the extensive reading I have done on here the past couple of days there must have been something wrong with the original PCN left on the windscreen as the letter starts with 'This parking charge notice super cedes xxxxxxxxx which has been reissued'. All my details are correct on it though. 

I have had my sister in law (who is now back in SA) contact this chap she was travelling with and he has said he did get 'something' on the windscreen but as it seemed so minor, in his opinion, he threw it away and didn't think anymore of it! I have to say looking at the photo on the NTK I would absolutely agree! That is obviously besides the point though, he should Definitely have said something to me. 

My question is this. Should I follow the appeal route and standard letter as per the Newbies section (thank you Coupon Mad) and just refrain from saying who was driving, or should I pass on the details I can get of this chap? The problem being is he is of no real fixed abode at the moment as he was living in a shared house (which he may or may not return to) before he and my sister in law started travelling. He is now travelling Australia while she has returned to SA but she has his old address and an email address. I know is may sound like a silly question but I am absolutely livid, as is she, and I would be more than happy to have the fine passed onto him if at all possible! He has stated to the tune that it's not his problem! (fingers burnt in the favour department on my side!) 

The notice to keeper is already 2 and a bit weeks old now so I have limited time. I have read that I should appeal to the shopping centre as the first port of call but don't know if this should be done at this stage due to the late nature of the case. Or should I do this in conjunction with an appeal to the PPC? Or should I just cough up and pay the £100 as even the reduced rate period to pay £60 is now passed. I would feel even more aggrieved if I was to pay though and am more than happy and willing to fight it all the way! Please Help! 

Sorry so long winded! Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. 

Coupon-mad

Two ways to deal with it:

Either:

(a) name the driver and give an address at which he can reasonably be contacted.  I'd suggest her SA address.  She can happily cope with any silly letters! No paying, does she know that?!  This is nothing to them.

Her address is serviceable for him and he should respond to any letter confirming he was driving (THIS IS IMPORTANT, TO HOOK IT AWAY FROM YOU) but asking for evidence of breach, and saying that he is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts anyway so they can get lost;

or

(b). Appeal as per the NEWBIES thread as keeper, stating that you were not driving and that the driver can be reached via an address in SA, but won't be named at this stage because you wish to appeal against your liability as keeper. State that there can be no keeper liability because there was no PCN issued to that vehicle and the NTK 're-issue' suggests that a wrong VRM was on the first notice.  

This means no NTD was served that complied with the POFA 2012 because it failed to state the vehicle in question.  Neither of the mandated pathways nor deadlines to 'keeper liability' set out in Schedule 4 para 8 nor 9 was met.  

KeithP

My first thought is to notify UKPC of the driver's name and address and let him deal with it, but that won't work if he doesn't respond when UKPC write to him. The problem remains with you.

If you were to agree with your sister-in-law that she will handle this then name her as the driver and give her address in SA.
But your SIL must confirm with UKPC that she was the driver if/when they write to her.
That would be perfectly safe to do as the parking company would find it far too difficult and costly to pursue someone in SA.

JustAnotherFella

Coupon-mad said:

Two ways to deal with it:

Either:

(a) name the driver and give an address at which he can reasonably be contacted.  I'd suggest her SA address.  She can happily cope with any silly letters! No paying, does she know that?!  This is nothing to them.

Her address is serviceable for him and he should respond to any letter confirming he was driving (THIS IS IMPORTANT, TO HOOK IT AWAY FROM YOU) but asking for evidence of breach, and saying that he is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts anyway so they can get lost;

or

(b). Appeal as per the NEWBIES thread as keeper, stating that you were not driving and that the driver can be reached via an address in SA, but won't be named at this stage because you wish to appeal against your liability as keeper. State that there can be no keeper liability because there was no PCN issued to that vehicle and the NTK 're-issue' suggests that a wrong VRM was on the first notice.  

This means no NTD was served that complied with the POFA 2012 because it failed to state the vehicle in question.  Neither of the mandated pathways nor deadlines to 'keeper liability' set out in Schedule 4 para 8 nor 9 was met.  

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for the advice. You guys are all angels on this site! I will update once I have conversed with her further and update all. 

JustAnotherFella

KeithP said:

My first thought is to notify UKPC of the driver's name and address and let him deal with it, but that won't work if he doesn't respond when UKPC write to him. The problem remains with you.

If you were to agree with your sister-in-law that she will handle this then name her as the driver and give her address in SA.
But your SIL must confirm with UKPC that she was the driver if/when they write to her.
That would be perfectly safe to do as the parking company would find it far too difficult and costly to pursue someone in SA.

Thank you so much for your advice too Keith. Again it is much appreciated. You guys are invaluable! 

JustAnotherFella

Coupon-mad said:

Two ways to deal with it:

Either:

(a) name the driver and give an address at which he can reasonably be contacted.  I'd suggest her SA address.  She can happily cope with any silly letters! No paying, does she know that?!  This is nothing to them.

Her address is serviceable for him and he should respond to any letter confirming he was driving (THIS IS IMPORTANT, TO HOOK IT AWAY FROM YOU) but asking for evidence of breach, and saying that he is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts anyway so they can get lost;

or

(b). Appeal as per the NEWBIES thread as keeper, stating that you were not driving and that the driver can be reached via an address in SA, but won't be named at this stage because you wish to appeal against your liability as keeper. State that there can be no keeper liability because there was no PCN issued to that vehicle and the NTK 're-issue' suggests that a wrong VRM was on the first notice.  

This means no NTD was served that complied with the POFA 2012 because it failed to state the vehicle in question.  Neither of the mandated pathways nor deadlines to 'keeper liability' set out in Schedule 4 para 8 nor 9 was met.  

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for the advice. You guys are all angels on this site! I will update once I have conversed with her further and update all. 

JustAnotherFella

Coupon-mad said:

Two ways to deal with it:

Either:

(a) name the driver and give an address at which he can reasonably be contacted.  I'd suggest her SA address.  She can happily cope with any silly letters! No paying, does she know that?!  This is nothing to them.

Her address is serviceable for him and he should respond to any letter confirming he was driving (THIS IS IMPORTANT, TO HOOK IT AWAY FROM YOU) but asking for evidence of breach, and saying that he is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts anyway so they can get lost;

or

(b). Appeal as per the NEWBIES thread as keeper, stating that you were not driving and that the driver can be reached via an address in SA, but won't be named at this stage because you wish to appeal against your liability as keeper. State that there can be no keeper liability because there was no PCN issued to that vehicle and the NTK 're-issue' suggests that a wrong VRM was on the first notice.  

This means no NTD was served that complied with the POFA 2012 because it failed to state the vehicle in question.  Neither of the mandated pathways nor deadlines to 'keeper liability' set out in Schedule 4 para 8 nor 9 was met.  

Hi again guys, 

Hope you're all enjoying your bank holiday Monday! 

Update on my matter is that my sister is law is not wanting her details to be given as she lives with my elderly parents in law and they, being extremely 'old school', are panicking about the matter. As such I have decided to go with Coupon-mads second piece of advise. I have prepared the below and would be extremely grateful if you would kindly cast an eye over it and suggest any edits, if required, before I submit it today. 

Just as a side note I have been in email contact with the chap who was driving and he has confirmed that there was an incorrect VRM on the NTD, which he says is the main reason that he didn't think there would be any issue. Also I don't believe I am giving any extra info away here on the forum in the second paragraph as I have investigated JLL and there are numerous properties that they manage across the country that have Asda's in them. Should I keep this paragraph in though? I am busy preparing very detailed complaints to Asda, JLL, and my local MP, as per suggestion. 

Re: PCN Number

I dispute your ‘parking charge’ as the of keeper of this vehicle. I had a family acquaintance visiting us who was driving the vehicle at the time on a visit to a local shopping centre. The driver is contactable via an address in South Africa, but I won’t be naming them at this stage as I am actually appealing against my liability as keeper.  I am putting in this appeal as there can be no keeper liability because there was no PCN issued to this vehicle and the Notice to Keeper ‘re-issue’ strongly suggests that a wrong Vehicle registration mark was on the first notice, thus by meaning that no Notice to driver was served that complied with the POFA 2012.

I am preparing lengthy and detailed complaints to Asda, with whom I shall no longer be shopping if an amicable outcome is not reached on this appeal, as well as making equally disgruntled complaint to the managing agents of the shopping centre, JLL, as to your predatory conduct in this matter. My local MP shall also be notified through complaint.

I look forward to your response in regards the above.

 

Many thanks again for your time afforded to me on this guys. 

Umkomaas

By all means complain to Asda, but I can almost guarantee they have not contracted with UKPC and are likely not to have any direct influence. Asda only contract directly with a PPC on their own exclusive car parks. Their operator is almost always ParkingEye. 

I am preparing lengthy and detailed complaints to Asda, with whom I shall no longer be shopping if an amicable outcome is not reached on this appeal,

I wouldn't be threatening that when they are unlikely to be able to do much about it in any event. Will you withdraw your custom even if Asda is unable to do anything?  Only threaten what you will carry out. Pick the right fight!

I'd concentrate on Jones Lang LaSalle. 

JustAnotherFella

Umkomaas said:

By all means complain to Asda, but I can almost guarantee they have not contracted with UKPC and are likely not to have any direct influence. Asda only contract directly with a PPC on their own exclusive car parks. Their operator is almost always ParkingEye. 

I am preparing lengthy and detailed complaints to Asda, with whom I shall no longer be shopping if an amicable outcome is not reached on this appeal,

I wouldn't be threatening that when they are unlikely to be able to do much about it in any event. Will you withdraw your custom even if Asda is unable to do anything?  Only threaten what you will carry out. Pick the right fight!

I'd concentrate on Jones Lang LaSalle. 

Many thanks for that Umkomaas. Do you think that the first paragraph is ok in it's content? If so I will send just that on then. 

JustAnotherFella

JustAnotherFella said:

Umkomaas said:

By all means complain to Asda, but I can almost guarantee they have not contracted with UKPC and are likely not to have any direct influence. Asda only contract directly with a PPC on their own exclusive car parks. Their operator is almost always ParkingEye. 

I am preparing lengthy and detailed complaints to Asda, with whom I shall no longer be shopping if an amicable outcome is not reached on this appeal,

I wouldn't be threatening that when they are unlikely to be able to do much about it in any event. Will you withdraw your custom even if Asda is unable to do anything?  Only threaten what you will carry out. Pick the right fight!

I'd concentrate on Jones Lang LaSalle. 

Many thanks for that Umkomaas. Do you think that the first paragraph is ok in it's content? If so I will send just that on then. 

And remove Asda from the 2nd paragraph. Keep in the JLL complaint. And leave in or out the MP letter I plan on sending?

Sorry for all the q's! Really appreciate everyone's time on this! 

JustAnotherFella

Umkomaas said:

By all means complain to Asda, but I can almost guarantee they have not contracted with UKPC and are likely not to have any direct influence. Asda only contract directly with a PPC on their own exclusive car parks. Their operator is almost always ParkingEye. 

I am preparing lengthy and detailed complaints to Asda, with whom I shall no longer be shopping if an amicable outcome is not reached on this appeal,

I wouldn't be threatening that when they are unlikely to be able to do much about it in any event. Will you withdraw your custom even if Asda is unable to do anything?  Only threaten what you will carry out. Pick the right fight!

I'd concentrate on Jones Lang LaSalle. 

And sorry, yes, in answer to your question, I have started shopping at a local Sainsburys too in protest, as the picture that I have seen on the PCN looks Totally unreasonable to me, i.e. a couple of inches of the back tyre over a line with the front tyre in line. And it is not over into another parking bay but rather a crisscrossed painted section.