Office-PDF Online - is this subscription method legal ?

DullGreyGuy

RefluentBeans said:

Gadjet87 said:

Have just recently fallen for this scam as well. Yes, it is in the small print and should have read that. What I should have had though as well is an email confirming my trial period/subscription and an email with a receipt for the £0.50 paid up front. They don't send either, for the exact reason that people don't realise and won't cancel a subscription they are not even aware of. I am now £39.90 out of pocket for a service I won't ever use. There are other free converters to use, make sure you always read the small print (lesson learned)

Yes - it’s in the fine print but the adverting is also pretty clear. It’s different if it’s FREE and then in the terms it says ‘actually it’s free in the sense you pay for it and you’re FREE to leave after you’ve paid us’. 

I think the bait and charge of some companies is unfair and there should be better regulations about it (and enforcement of the current regulations) but this would more than likely be an example of a good way of doing these types of subscriptions. 

Could they do more? Yes of course they could. But the vast majority of some subscriptions rely on the fact that people tend to not cancel them, even if they don’t use the product. In this case, you used the product and then got charged when you failed to cancel. The terms weren’t hidden, and it’s not like you’re a dormant customer who hasn’t used the product in months or years. 

Short answer is - yes read the small print it’s there for a reason!! And read the main print in this case! 

Its almost easier if it is Free because then it makes you wonder why they need your card details, the answer is obviously that its going to renew onto a paid subscription. This advert to me is very clear what's going to happen, its upfront and center not hidden away in 50 pages of T&Cs/small print

I agree that this isnt any form of scam, it's a classic introductory discount before returning to full price. Personally dont think there is any need for any type of legislation change particularly for a trial as short as 48 hours. I would like to see that renewals have to be notified before going through (say 14 days) but that's because it's harder to remember when something renews on an annual contract. Enforcement will clearly be difficult as most sites are not UK based 

For Apple AppStore trials etc (it may be the same with other App Stores) I like the fact you can instantly cancel a free/promo trial but still get the full duration of the trial. Same goes for paid subscriptions. For websites, cancellation normally means a cut off from the service at that point. 

RefluentBeans

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

Gadjet87 said:

Have just recently fallen for this scam as well. Yes, it is in the small print and should have read that. What I should have had though as well is an email confirming my trial period/subscription and an email with a receipt for the £0.50 paid up front. They don't send either, for the exact reason that people don't realise and won't cancel a subscription they are not even aware of. I am now £39.90 out of pocket for a service I won't ever use. There are other free converters to use, make sure you always read the small print (lesson learned)

Yes - it’s in the fine print but the adverting is also pretty clear. It’s different if it’s FREE and then in the terms it says ‘actually it’s free in the sense you pay for it and you’re FREE to leave after you’ve paid us’. 

I think the bait and charge of some companies is unfair and there should be better regulations about it (and enforcement of the current regulations) but this would more than likely be an example of a good way of doing these types of subscriptions. 

Could they do more? Yes of course they could. But the vast majority of some subscriptions rely on the fact that people tend to not cancel them, even if they don’t use the product. In this case, you used the product and then got charged when you failed to cancel. The terms weren’t hidden, and it’s not like you’re a dormant customer who hasn’t used the product in months or years. 

Short answer is - yes read the small print it’s there for a reason!! And read the main print in this case! 

Its almost easier if it is Free because then it makes you wonder why they need your card details, the answer is obviously that its going to renew onto a paid subscription. This advert to me is very clear what's going to happen, its upfront and center not hidden away in 50 pages of T&Cs/small print

I agree that this isnt any form of scam, it's a classic introductory discount before returning to full price. Personally dont think there is any need for any type of legislation change particularly for a trial as short as 48 hours. I would like to see that renewals have to be notified before going through (say 14 days) but that's because it's harder to remember when something renews on an annual contract. Enforcement will clearly be difficult as most sites are not UK based 

For Apple AppStore trials etc (it may be the same with other App Stores) I like the fact you can instantly cancel a free/promo trial but still get the full duration of the trial. Same goes for paid subscriptions. For websites, cancellation normally means a cut off from the service at that point. 

I suppose it would be good if there was a more direct way to challenge these sort of operations. It doesn’t sit well with me that these companies business models are that they hope you forget to cancel and get charged. Saying that - that’s exactly how any company with a recurring revenue operates, like tv companies, ISP’s etc. 

I agree not a scam, and actually not too outrageous with its charges. I looked on their website, there’s no way an average consumer is getting tricked here. Like you say - differnt story if it’s on paragraph 319, of subsection B, in Annex 3a of the terms, but this is literally on the main page in black and white. 

Of course OP could ask them to refund, but that’s a goodwill gesture. I’ve fell for these sort of subscriptions and been able to get some refund amount (even a pro rata of a few months) but obviously your mileage may vary. 

DullGreyGuy

RefluentBeans said:

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

Gadjet87 said:

Have just recently fallen for this scam as well. Yes, it is in the small print and should have read that. What I should have had though as well is an email confirming my trial period/subscription and an email with a receipt for the £0.50 paid up front. They don't send either, for the exact reason that people don't realise and won't cancel a subscription they are not even aware of. I am now £39.90 out of pocket for a service I won't ever use. There are other free converters to use, make sure you always read the small print (lesson learned)

Yes - it’s in the fine print but the adverting is also pretty clear. It’s different if it’s FREE and then in the terms it says ‘actually it’s free in the sense you pay for it and you’re FREE to leave after you’ve paid us’. 

I think the bait and charge of some companies is unfair and there should be better regulations about it (and enforcement of the current regulations) but this would more than likely be an example of a good way of doing these types of subscriptions. 

Could they do more? Yes of course they could. But the vast majority of some subscriptions rely on the fact that people tend to not cancel them, even if they don’t use the product. In this case, you used the product and then got charged when you failed to cancel. The terms weren’t hidden, and it’s not like you’re a dormant customer who hasn’t used the product in months or years. 

Short answer is - yes read the small print it’s there for a reason!! And read the main print in this case! 

Its almost easier if it is Free because then it makes you wonder why they need your card details, the answer is obviously that its going to renew onto a paid subscription. This advert to me is very clear what's going to happen, its upfront and center not hidden away in 50 pages of T&Cs/small print

I agree that this isnt any form of scam, it's a classic introductory discount before returning to full price. Personally dont think there is any need for any type of legislation change particularly for a trial as short as 48 hours. I would like to see that renewals have to be notified before going through (say 14 days) but that's because it's harder to remember when something renews on an annual contract. Enforcement will clearly be difficult as most sites are not UK based 

For Apple AppStore trials etc (it may be the same with other App Stores) I like the fact you can instantly cancel a free/promo trial but still get the full duration of the trial. Same goes for paid subscriptions. For websites, cancellation normally means a cut off from the service at that point. 

I suppose it would be good if there was a more direct way to challenge these sort of operations. It doesn’t sit well with me that these companies business models are that they hope you forget to cancel and get charged. Saying that - that’s exactly how any company with a recurring revenue operates, like tv companies, ISP’s etc. 

And for those that actually use the service the reality is they are getting a better price because there are a load of customers paying and not using the service. Imagine how much a gym service would cost if the rarely/non-attending members weren't still paying? Based on how many have gone out of business in recent years it's not like they are making billions in excess profits. 

Auto-renwal in my industry (insurance) is very contentious but its without doubt its saved vast numbers of people from accidentally driving without insurance or having no insurance when their house burns down (have dealt with the complaints when an insured wasnt auto-renewing and did forget to renew before a big incident). Maybe with a gym, mobile or PDF service its less critical its there when you need it if you forget about the renewal but there will always be some scenario. Even if its not a life & death situation there will always be some that are happy to renew each time and glad they are saved the effort of having to do so actively.

UncleJunior

Hi

I recently used the service not noticing the bit about a monthly subscription after 2 days - the stuff about the subscription was in an e-mail they sent when they confirmed my payment of 50p for a PDF conversion but the font was so small I couldn't read the text so it went unnoticed.

I don't recall seeing anything about the subscription when I went through the process of doing the PDF conversion.

I noticed that they had taken a further £39.90 from my card this morning which was when I went to look at the e-mails again.

I called them this morning - there was very little waiting time in fairness and when I explained what had happened they didn't argue and processed a refund straight away.  I should say I checked as well that their number was not a premium rate number and can confirm as an 0203 number, it is charged at a normal rate and part of any inclusive minutes.

I am sure they know what they are doing - they do not make it clear enough about the subscription intentionally - in their e-mails, the bit about the subscription is in a font that is smaller than any other font in the e-mail and I challenge anyone with 20/20 vision to read the text without a magnifying glass or specialist reading glasses.  To read the text I had to copy and paste the text into notepad where the characters would be large enough to read.

When I spoke to them on the phone I told them that they really need to make the fonts bigger or at least use the same font size as other wording in the e-mail - the lady said she would pass this comment on but somehow I suspect nothing will change.

But based on my experience I would certainly chase a refund. 

 

RefluentBeans

In all honesty - how can they be much clearer? This is literally on their front page. Not endorsing their business by any means, but it’s pretty clearly laid out the pricing structure. 

This feels like it’s people reading the 50p* and not even checking the third bullet point down. 

Any refund is entirely discretionary, and is by no means guaranteed. 

UncleJunior

@RefluentBeans

When you google free pdf converter in chrome, office pdf comes up clearly stating it's free. Then when you click on the link to the web site, the front cover makes no mention about a monthly charge and to see this you have to scroll down to the bottom to see the bit about membership and prices.

I went directly to the convert file button and following this through saw no mention of the monthly fees but was asked for credit card details to pay the 50p for the one off conversion. 

And then as I said earlier, when I received e-mails from them, the membership stuff was set out but in print that was not readable to the naked eye and with fonts smaller than all other fonts used in their e-mails.

They intentionally attempt to obscure the membership stuff wherever they can - it is a scam of sorts - when I phoned them about a refund, they did not attempt to argue in any way and immediately authorised the refund so I suppose you could argue they are just trying their luck but call them and they will refund. 

I mean seriously - would you pay £40 per month for converting a single PDF into an excel file?

powerful_Rogue

I've just gone to the site and converted a file.

It still say' it's 50p for the trial.

UncleJunior

And what about the google search clearing stating 'free PDF converter'...

How about this bit in the e-mail I received from them - is that really readable to the naked eye?

They are doing everything they can to downplay / obfuscate / hide the bit about the monthly subscription that you are unintentionally signing up to.

How about an e-mail in normal font saying 'Dear Customer You are about to sign up to a monthly subscription for £40....' - they wouldn't do that of course because then 99.9% of people would cancel before they were caught out. 

And then there are their TrustPilot reviews with the hundred's of what are obviously fake reviews designed to hide the genuine complaints from people who have been caught out by this scam.  Or are you suggesting all those 5* reviews on TrustPilot are genuine?

GingerTim

It also says 'your basic membership is valid until 24/9/2023', i.e. for 48 hours, and very clearly states this is a 48 hour trial, with the asterisk pointing you to the small print which is pretty clear on the monthly charge.

UncleJunior

Am sorry but I am struggling to see how you can argue their case.

How does stating 'basic membership is valid until 24/09...' become a clear statement telling you that after that point you are enrolled in a subscription where you will be charged £40 per month going forward?

And then how does a * after the '48 hour trial' text point you to text that is barely readable to the naked eye? 

There is no * at the start of the unreadable paragraph so how do you know you are meant to read it?  

Bear in mind as well that you have agreed to pay 50p for the conversion so naturally you would not expect any further charges.

There is nothing in the e-mail that clearly sets out in plain sight the significant subscription charge that you will be signing up to - I come back to my earlier point regarding who would pay £40 to convert a single PDF file into excel??

It is obvious that they have done everything they scan to hide any mention of the subscription.

And finally why is it they do not clearly set out the subscription in clear readable text that cannot be missed - the answer is obviously because they know that if you were aware of this, you would not proceed.  That is a scam by any definition.