Is this a scam?

[Deleted User]

Do you mean that if a mistake isn't corrected with 10 days, then the other party keeps the money?

No, absolutely not.  They have 6 years from last acknowledgment.

Your parents will be able to confirm if they received the payments with their bank.

They'll be able to make arrangements to repay, rather than having to find it all now 

SkittlesnBandaid

Hi zx81. This is presuming that the gist of this letter too isn’t a mistake?

SkittlesnBandaid

Hi again zx81. Out of interest what legislation covers mistaken payments like this please? (we aren’t yet sure if it’s a mistake yet but for argument sake saying that there was). Thanks for your reply 

[Deleted User]

You're sending a denial of debt (prove it) letter, not a statute barred letter, however in this case it won't apply. It seems they borrowed money, paid it back with interest and then somehow got a refund / payment a few years later. As it's from December 2018 then it is absolutely not statute barred (they have 6 years) and there is no such thing as a 10 day "finders keepers" sort of rule and it would likely need to be repaid if they have been given £58k for no reason. I would use the LPA to speak to their bank and confirm if they had this payment. Assuming so, you will need to ask the firm for a payment plan that they can afford based on their income - that is what they will want and given the size of the debt, they are highly likely to push for a charging order to go on the house such that when your parents die or sell up, they will get their money. The fact a different firm has bought the first firm is irrelevant, they are entitled to their money.

SkittlesnBandaid

hi Farfetch. I hear you but not sure if it’s entirely correct. They borrowed money and invested some of it with the lender (in this product). The lender says their predecessor closed the account on my parents instruction and paid out on the product. As I understand it the total borrowing had or has been paid back by separate cover. The £30k would have then been theirs (if it was paid back) plus the interest. My folks have no record of the account mentioned initially in the letter of 11/4/22 so we do need more info. 

My understanding was that it wasn’t cashed in and that the larger payment came out of the blue. My folks having forgotten about the product they bought 17 years before. My guess is they believed the money was rightfully theirs and spent it in good faith on that basis.

So perhaps a SAR accompanied by a balanced response asking for a more balanced approach while all potential parties to any legal action are allowed to get a full grasp of all the facts.

I appreciate your reasoned distance and obviously there’s a potential emotive conveyor for myself but that apart there seem to be two questions the lender seems to be avoiding. Where is the proof and second even if the claim can be evidenced is it justified given caselaw.

 Thanks again for your reply 

S&B

[Deleted User]

SkittlesnBandaid said:

there seem to be two questions the lender seems to be avoiding. Where is the proof and second even if the claim can be evidenced is it justified given caselaw.

They answered both those points.

The evidence is in the letter  - your parents can validate that for themselves against their bank records and agreement. If they lack either of those, they can obtain them easily.

And the justification is that the debt is owed and enforceable.

Their current defence of 'well, we don't know really' is insufficient. If they find that they weren't given the money or that is was owed to them, then that needs to be their defence.

[Deleted User]

SkittlesnBandaid said:

hi Farfetch. I hear you but not sure if it’s entirely correct. They borrowed money and invested some of it with the lender (in this product). The lender says their predecessor closed the account on my parents instruction and paid out on the product. As I understand it the total borrowing had or has been paid back by separate cover. The £30k would have then been theirs (if it was paid back) plus the interest. My folks have no record of the account mentioned initially in the letter of 11/4/22 so we do need more info. 

My understanding was that it wasn’t cashed in and that the larger payment came out of the blue. My folks having forgotten about the product they bought 17 years before. My guess is they believed the money was rightfully theirs and spent it in good faith on that basis.

So perhaps a SAR accompanied by a balanced response asking for a more balanced approach while all potential parties to any legal action are allowed to get a full grasp of all the facts.

I appreciate your reasoned distance and obviously there’s a potential emotive conveyor for myself but that apart there seem to be two questions the lender seems to be avoiding. Where is the proof and second even if the claim can be evidenced is it justified given caselaw.

 Thanks again for your reply 

S&B

Are you sure this was equity release? The letter talks of a "Portfolio Bond" which is an investment vehicle that seems to be designed for investors including pensioners. It sounds like they invested the money for 5 years then asked for a surrender, so they got their £30,000 back with £3568.86 returns on top. The firm has evidence it was paid (either via BACS or a cashed cheque).

Reading the letter through, the firm incorrectly re-instated the bond on their system and started sending statements, so with another 11 years of growth, it became £58,339.66 (certainly not unrealistic with the markets). The fact they didn't question why they were suddenly given a statement for a product that they closed and were given their investment back from 11 years before is irrelevant in legal terms, it should have been questioned at the time. They then waited a year and asked for the money to be given back and so your parents have had two payments for the same bond. Spending this money is done but they will need to talk to this firm and agree a repayment plan or they will certainly obtain a CCJ and likely put on a charging order on the house.

The important thing here is that you cannot ignore it. If you ask for proof, they will provide it and if you become combative and start trying to deny the debt or threatening legal action, it could get very expensive. You are free to DSAR them for evidence but if/when the firm produces it, you need to have a plan in action to deal with it

SkittlesnBandaid

Thanks. You say easily but by what method and without accepting or denying any liability please?

Dazed_and_C0nfused

SkittlesnBandaid said:

Thanks. You say easily but by what method and without accepting or denying any liability please?

This will boil down to the facts.

Either your parents have had both payments (and cashed cheque(s) if that was the payment method) or they haven't.

Once that is established then your parents may well have received atrocious service from this company.  And they may be able to put a convincing argument that they didn't realise the extra £58k wasn't theirs to keep.

But the fact is the company who made the mistake are running a business and won't suddenly roll over and drop this if they are, as seems to be the case, legally able to recoup the funds.

Had it been £58 or even £580 they may not have even bothered writing but £58k is a whole different league.  Especially if there is a property available.

You may be able to get a (relatively small) reduction for the poor service but written off in full I very much doubt.

SkittlesnBandaid

hello Dazed_and_C0nfused. On the face of it what you say maybe correct. But my question is how to establish those facts please? I understand under some circumstances the law protects the lender, but against that is the mistake of re-activating the account, then sending out a statement, then further giving my folks the impression that money was theirs, then agreeing to pay and then finally paying out. That’s 5 opportunities to distance my folks from the idea the money was legitimately theirs to be spent. This is different perhaps than from dropping money into an account one day and asking for it back the next.

Theres also the amount being asked for that could become  questionable. If they paid back the initial £30k as part of paying off the remortgage (which I recall them doing) the amount ‘owed’ could be far less than currently stated and quite possibly £0. In which case the company owes my folks a very big apology.

As you say it’s big league screw-up by the lender. As a result I would have expected all the evidence to have been presented along with the letter. It’s wrong not to. Bad practice bordering on elder abuse in anyones book IMHO

How do we establish the facts? Please someone enlighten me.
 Thanks