Trying to cancel a furniture order due for delivery June/July 2022

LB2022

born_again said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

LB2022 said:

Hi @Manxman_in_excile No it isn't custom built. And I have yet to confirm the colour as they were sending samples. That was 3 weeks ago and the samples haven't arrived. They won't be able to start without my colour choices.

OP you should go back and explain that your purchase was classed as an off premises contract as the exhibition was not their usual place of business and as such you have the right to cancel the contract.

You'll need to explain that picking from options they provide does not make the goods custom or personalised so their terms aren't compliant with the regulations.

Request the return of your deposit within 14 days, if they don't provide this use the address they gave you to issue a letter before action (templates on Google).

If you paid by credit card you should have S75 cover which places the same liability upon the card provider. If you paid by debit card you might be able to ask for a chargeback, chargebacks will cover non-delivery but whether it will cover this circumstance I'm not sure as the delivery date isn't due yet and your issue really is with the right to cancel. 

If you don't get anywhere at all with either the trader or card company you'd be looking at small claims.

How much was the deposit and how much was the whole order? 

Chargeback would not cover it at the moment. As OP has a delivery date in the future. There is also no chargeback that would cover OP canceling the order (change of mind)

The order was £6000 with a £2000 deposit.  I would be interested to see the top copy of the order to see if their t&c's were printed on it.  Also I was not advised of them before signing - I know I should have read the small print, easier said than done at the Olympia.  I cancelled the order within 24 hours of placing it as I was unable to change it through a store - I had to call their head office to deal with any changes.  They have not returned any of my calls or replied to my emails except for the request of return of deposit template letter I emailed!  In that they stated the following:-

"The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the Regulations”) to which you refer have no application to your contracts with us namely, Order Form Numbers D1151 and D1152.

 

The Regulations apply to distance selling contracts, such as ones placed online, over the telephone or by mail order.

 

You entered into both contracts on our stand at the Ideal Home Show at Olympia. This is an extension of our business premises and you do not have the 14 right to cancel.

 

The Terms & Conditions on your signed Order Form which you confirmed by signing that you had read and understood state that:

 

“It is important that you appreciate and understand that your order is a firm and legally binding contract. The goods are either being especially reserved for you from display or made for you in your choice of style, size and colour. Your deposit is non-returnable and we reserve the right to apply for your agreed further deposit and any balance outstanding from your original payment Card.”

 

In the circumstances we are unable to agree to refund your deposits paid and both your orders remain live."

born_again

Thinking about the above I'm going to guess this is a Pin verified transaction as well. Makes life even harder.

Manxman_in_exile

LB2022 said:

born_again said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

LB2022 said:

Hi @Manxman_in_excile No it isn't custom built. And I have yet to confirm the colour as they were sending samples. That was 3 weeks ago and the samples haven't arrived. They won't be able to start without my colour choices.

OP you should go back and explain that your purchase was classed as an off premises contract as the exhibition was not their usual place of business and as such you have the right to cancel the contract.

You'll need to explain that picking from options they provide does not make the goods custom or personalised so their terms aren't compliant with the regulations.

Request the return of your deposit within 14 days, if they don't provide this use the address they gave you to issue a letter before action (templates on Google).

If you paid by credit card you should have S75 cover which places the same liability upon the card provider. If you paid by debit card you might be able to ask for a chargeback, chargebacks will cover non-delivery but whether it will cover this circumstance I'm not sure as the delivery date isn't due yet and your issue really is with the right to cancel. 

If you don't get anywhere at all with either the trader or card company you'd be looking at small claims.

How much was the deposit and how much was the whole order? 

Chargeback would not cover it at the moment. As OP has a delivery date in the future. There is also no chargeback that would cover OP canceling the order (change of mind)

...  They have not returned any of my calls or replied to my emails except for the request of return of deposit template letter I emailed!  In that they stated the following:-

"The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the Regulations”) to which you refer have no application to your contracts with us namely, Order Form Numbers D1151 and D1152.

 

The Regulations apply to distance selling contracts, such as ones placed online, over the telephone or by mail order.

 

You entered into both contracts on our stand at the Ideal Home Show at Olympia. This is an extension of our business premises and you do not have the 14 right to cancel... "

This refers to the point I was making on the previous page, and I think your seller is wrong.  (Although I'm happy to be corrected).

The law they refer to does not only apply to distance selling contracts such as those placed online, over the 'phone, or by mail order.  It also applies to "off-premises" contracts.

If you entered into this purchase at Olympia (or wherever the IHE was) then it would be an off-premises contract and therefore subject to cancellation by you within 14 days, unless Olympia (or wherever it was) is "... immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis... "   The important word there is permanent.  Unless your trader carries out their activities at Olympia (or wherever it was) on a permanent basis, your right to cancel within 14 days still applies.  I may be wrong, and am ready to be corrected, but I doubt that they permanently carry out business at Olympia.  (But maybe they can show that they do!  I don't know.)

So far as I'm aware, the bit about their stand at Olympia being "an extension of their business premises" is not mentioned anywhere in the legislation and is legally meaningless.  Ask them to give you a reference for that point of law.

Go back to them and put the above points to them, and tell them you are still exercising your right to cancel and you still want a full refund.

The law you need to quote is in s29 (which gives you the right to cancel an "off-premises" contract) and s5 (which defines both "off-premises" and "business premises".   The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk).

I'd be interested to know what else they come up with.  They may have a good legal basis to deny that you have a right to cancel, but I don't think they've shown you what it is yet.

LB2022

Thanks @Manxman_in_exile. I will send them another letter quoting the above. I will keep you posted!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

OP some information below regarding off premises:

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/off-premises-sales/consumer-contracts-off-premises-sales

off-premises contracts. There are four types of these contracts:

2. A contract made where a consumer and trader are together and an offer is made by the consumer in a place that is not the trader's business premises - for example, where a consumer signs an order form during a visit to their home and the trader agrees the contract later

4. A contract made with the consumer during an excursion organised by the trader with the aim of selling or promoting goods or services to the consumer. The Regulations do not define an 'excursion'; however, it is possible that this will cover a situation where a trader meets a consumer on holiday and invites them to travel with the trader to a different venue to be sold goods or services

There is a scenarios PDF here:

https://www.businesscompanion.info/sites/default/files/Where-you-sell-scenarios-Feb-2016.pdf

It's worth noting they state customer buys a set of pans from a trader's market stall (regular pitch) is on premises because it's regular. 

For off premises closest example is Customer buys school uniform from trader who has organised an excursion to the school to promote and sell schoolwear. 

So it seems to centre on the place not being a regular place of trade, even if the event was yearly or 6 monthly and they attended each time I don't think that would be classed as regular so you'd have the right to cancel. If it was fortnightly or monthly then it may be classed as regular and possibly no right to cancel.

LB2022

Thanks @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head.  I have sent them another letter.

I have thought of some other leverage (albeit a little mean).  Before signing the contract they gave my son and I a glass of prosecco (to be honest at 11am it did go to my head and probably didn't help with my common sense not kicking in!).  I researched alchohol at the Olympia and found the rule book for exhibitors which states:-

"Alcohol: Any stands selling or serving alcohol (except when provided by the venue’s hospitality catering partner), whether for off-site consumption or product sampling, must be notified to your Event Manager. You will need to supply an application letter (template available from your Event Manager) no later than 14 days prior to the event, to ensure that legal requirements can be met. The following restrictions apply:  The consumption of alcohol is not permitted on the exhibition floor during the build-up and breakdown periods of the event  Alcohol provided for the purposes of hospitality must be supplied by Olympia’s hospitality caterer  Alcohol sampling must conform to sampling regulations (max 85ml; neat spirits 25ml)  Alcohol may not be sold or served at the venue before 10am  Exhibitors are not permitted to retail alcohol for on-site consumption "

We were give a small wine glass of prosecco (not the medicine shot you are given at other stands who are selling their alcohol).  I wonder if they have a copy of the application letter confirming consent to offer alcohol to customers when signing a contract?

k3lvc

LB2022 said:

Thanks @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head.  I have sent them another letter.

I have thought of some other leverage (albeit a little mean).  Before signing the contract they gave my son and I a glass of prosecco (to be honest at 11am it did go to my head and probably didn't help with my common sense not kicking in!).  I researched alchohol at the Olympia and found the rule book for exhibitors which states:-

"Alcohol: Any stands selling or serving alcohol (except when provided by the venue’s hospitality catering partner), whether for off-site consumption or product sampling, must be notified to your Event Manager. You will need to supply an application letter (template available from your Event Manager) no later than 14 days prior to the event, to ensure that legal requirements can be met. The following restrictions apply:  The consumption of alcohol is not permitted on the exhibition floor during the build-up and breakdown periods of the event  Alcohol provided for the purposes of hospitality must be supplied by Olympia’s hospitality caterer  Alcohol sampling must conform to sampling regulations (max 85ml; neat spirits 25ml)  Alcohol may not be sold or served at the venue before 10am  Exhibitors are not permitted to retail alcohol for on-site consumption "

We were give a small wine glass of prosecco (not the medicine shot you are given at other stands who are selling their alcohol).  I wonder if they have a copy of the application letter confirming consent to offer alcohol to customers when signing a contract?

There's clutching at straws and there's !!!!!! in the wind - this falls entirely into the latter category and they'll easily argue (even if they see fit to respond to your challenge) that it was provided by the hospitality company

LB2022

Thanks @k3lvc. You're right.  Just getting a little frustrated.  I will keep on the legal route

Manxman_in_exile

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

 
...So it seems to centre on the place not being a regular place of trade, even if the event was yearly or 6 monthly and they attended each time I don't think that would be classed as regular so you'd have the right to cancel. If it was fortnightly or monthly then it may be classed as regular and possibly no right to cancel.

What is the purpose of allowing cancellation for "off-premises" sales anyway?  Distance sales I can understand, but I find off-premises a bit more difficult.

I presume the point is that if you go to a trader's premises voluntarily that you are less likely to be "hard sold" into a purchase you don't want to make, whereas if you are ambushed at home or somewhere else that is not the trader's usual place of business, you might get browbeaten into a purchase?  I'm afraid it doesn't make sense to me.*

However, the law does allow a consumer to cancel an off-premises purchase.  An off-premises puchase is made when a contract is made somewhere other than the trader's "business premises".

Business premises are defined as follows:

“business premises” in relation to a trader means—

(a) any immovable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a permanent basis, or

(b) any movable retail premises where the activity of the trader is carried out on a usual basis

So the question should be whether the venue for the Ideal Home Show is either "immovable" or "movable" retail premises.

As another poster pointed out above, Olympia - or wherever the venue was - could hardly be described as "movable", so unless the trader is selling there permanently it must be an off-premises sale.

Unless, that is, the trader can argue that their annual stall at Olympia (or wherever) is "movable" and that their annual business there is "usual".

What can be said is that the trader's explanation that their stall at Olympia is "an extension of their business premises" seems to have no justification in the legislation at all as I read it.

I think if I were the OP I'd be inclined to push them a bit further...


*I suppose the trader could possibly argue that there is in effect very little difference between buying at their own business premises and buying at the IHS.  Presumably potential consumers go to the IHS with a view to buying something just like they would at the trader's premises?  I don't know...

Jenni_D

Manxman_in_exile said:

*I suppose the trader could possibly argue that there is in effect very little difference between buying at their own business premises and buying at the IHS.  Presumably potential consumers go to the IHS with a view to buying something just like they would at the trader's premises?  I don't know...

Do people go to the Motor Show* to buy a car? Do they go to the Bike Show* to buy a motorbike? Or do they go to events like this to get an idea of what is actually available? (i.e. to see things they'd never consider buying, and other things that might take their interest so the visit to the show is a form of research).

* Names not verified, but people should know what I mean - anyone picking apart this post because I haven't used specific show names will be treated with disdain.