Help please - CCJ & Debt Recovery – from unknown Parking fine

Le_Kirk

Castle said:

The DVLA even warns the PPC under B7.1 of the KADOE Agreement that it might not be accurate:-

The DVLA shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that the Data is accurate and up to date before it is transmitted to the Customer, but the DVLA cannot warrant the accuracy of the Data provided. The DVLA does not accept any liability for any inaccurate information supplied to it by the keeper of the vehicle or any other source beyond its control.

Good point but how do they do that?  I've never had a communication from DVLA asking me if I still live at the address on their database!  To be fair, I haven't moved in 36 years!

Jack5656

It has been 9 days since my hearing and I have not had a letter (or email) from the court. I know we had a long bank holiday last weekend but even so I expected some notification of the outcome in writing by now -  especially as the judge said he was giving 7 days for a response from CEL and they meant are to pay my costs! Should I be concerned?

Coupon-mad

Nope, it takes weeks...

Jack5656

Order finally arrived today. Confirms the set aside and gives CEL a week to say what directions if any they seek as a consequence so now we wait and see!

It also directs CEL to pay the DEF's costs and the date for this to be done by has already passed and I have had nothing. But to be fair if I only just recd this order maybe CEL have not had it in time to pay yet. By what method are CEL supposed to pay me though?

Le_Kirk

Jack5656 said:

By what method are CEL supposed to pay me though?

Do they have your bank details for bank transfer?  If not, I guess it will be a cheque.

barneybetty

Hello , I have my hearing coming up on 21st July . DBS legal have just sent me there witness statement and I suddenly feel all panicked again by this all. So happy you won yours , do you have your updated witness statement you used for me to glance over . You’ve been great help from the start , specially the court notes as I’m really nervous about what to expect 

Jack5656

barneybetty said:

Hello , I have my hearing coming up on 21st July . DBS legal have just sent me there witness statement and I suddenly feel all panicked again by this all. So happy you won yours , do you have your updated witness statement you used for me to glance over . You’ve been great help from the start , specially the court notes as I’m really nervous about what to expect 

My WS is on page 5 of this thread and I then just added Coupon's addition:

'a failure to carry out proper checks to establish the right address for service before filing a claim not only breaches the CPRs but also the pre-action protocol for debt claims and the British Parking Association Code of Practice.  The Claimant acted wholly unreasonably by negligently or deliberately disregarding all rules and caused the claim to be improperly served.  They failed to serve it at all. '

My supplementary WS is on page 13 of this thread which was literally just to back up and develop points in the original WS. Sadly the judge never got my supplementary WS to read in time (even though it was sent in time!) but the original WS did the trick for set aside at least.

Now I'm faced with 2nd hearing (so it has not yet gone away sadly) but best of luck, I know it makes you very nervous but you can do it just don't forget the key points to get over and don';t be intimidated.

Jack5656

I phoned the court today as not been paid my costs for set aside hearing and it seems CEL have applied to have the claim restored via small claims court (following the set aside).

Really annoyed about this as I hoped they’d have the good grace to leave it now after all the stress and hassle they have inflicted already, but they seem set on asking judge to reallocate the claim sadly. Now bracing myself for a 2nd hearing and having to defend the original claim!

Whats the worst case outcome if judge decides the PCN should be paid at a defence hearing? I assume the PCN attracts a costs of around £100 max (not the inflated £170 rising to £348 with CCJ) I was looking at before?

I would have expected them to try and settle this by sending the original PCN from scratch to my correct address rather than have a small claims hearing, or is that required??

Surely it costs CEL money for this - I can’t see how this is cost effective for them as surely the hearing costs outweigh what they can get back from PCN? Or do I have to pay their costs of they are successful at 2nd hearing?

Coupon-mad

Hang on.

The first Judge dismissed the claim because of the Boxwood 4 months dead argument, didn't he?

Did you get a written Order, can you show us a redacted copy so we know what the Order was that they are objecting to?

So this next hearing still won't be about the PCN because they can't just pay to resurrect the claim if it's been dismissed. Doesn't work like that.

What they must have done is applied for the first Order to be set aside, and this hearing will be to hear their application.

The application will either say that:

(a) the Judge erred on law and they object to his order due to certain reasons

or

(b) they wanted to attend that first CCJ hearing and the court mucked it up by not letting them attend or join, and so there was an error in the process and they want the whole CCJ thing re-heard.

You need to know what their application says and you want to attend that hearing EVEN IF THE COURT SAYS 'don't worry, you don't have to, as it's an application only'.

So what I would do is email the court today and copy in CEL and tell them you want a copy of the application and the court's responses AND you wish to attend any hearing of any matter relating to your case, as is your right. Therefore, you request directions and a hearing Order.

See also what @bargepole or @Johnersh think if they stop by here to comment.

Now bracing myself for a 2nd hearing and having to defend the original claim! 

That's not what this is about.

Whats the worst case outcome if judge decides the PCN should be paid at a defence hearing? I assume the PCN attracts a costs of around £100 max (not the inflated £170 rising to £348 with CCJ) I was looking at before?

Your hearing is not about that, but people who lose a defended case usually get ordered to pay the PCN of £100 plus about £60 in court filing/hearing fees. Maybe £50 if the Judge accepts they can also have the capped legal fees (despite not using a law firm). Probably NOT the fake added £70!  Therefore just over £200ish, worst case.

Rehearse the reasons why a PPC cannot simply use an old address supplied by the DVLA. Your Judge nearly went wrong on that didn't he? Assumed a DVLA address was fine forever and all a PPC needs to do. Wrong.

Even if you'd changed your DVLA rk data in the meantime before the claim was filed, CEL could not have asked DVLA twice (not allowed under DVLA KADOE rules) and that is precisely why the BPA Code requires all AOS members to check details again (a soft trace) before litigation.

Costs 29 pence but in our experience, CEL never bother.

The new (on hold but incoming by 2023) statutory Code of Practice spells the requirement to do a soft trace out far more clearly than the vague BPA CoP but the message is clear.  CEL could not just run with a notoriously unreliable car reg address.

In not bothering, they also breached the CPRs requirement to take 'reasonable steps' before serving a claim. Average tenants change address every year these days. People are transient.

Your silence to their letters was a 'reason to believe' the address may well be wrong. Yet they ignore that and despite having an (ex-Wonga) barrister in charge, CEL are solely responsible for more CCJs than any other parking firm and potentially they are a vexatious litigant due to this repeated conduct.

I'd say that!

Jack5656

From my understanding the Judge didn’t dismiss the claim just yet – only set aside the CCJ and would then dismiss the claim if no response from CEL by date given. I attached the redacted court order for you to see below. When I spoke to the courts today they said they had an email from CEL in response to the Judge’s order.

The courts have a backlog so they have not started to work on the email, but it sounds like CEL are still seeking to pursue their claim. I queried how they can do this if Judge ruled under CPR13.2 that the claim is set aside as it cannot be resurrected if over 4 months from date of ineffective service. The court officer said the claim is still live because the Judge gave CEL option to notify the court (which they have) of what directions they want to take next, and only if they did not respond by a given date was the claim to be struck out.

It seems the court will allow CEL’s email to be given to the Judge to consider if there should be a 2nd hearing to contest the claim/PCN and I will be notified. As the Judge gave CEL time to respond before striking the claim, by responding CEL have kept the claim alive. Therefore it has not been struck out - only the CCJ has been set aside.

So I won on having the CCJ being set aside, but have not won on striking the claim out – is that a fair assessment?

I wonder if the Judge has not correctly followed the CPRs because 13.2 surely requires the claim to be struck out - not "let's give the 'C' time to think about their next move before I follow CPR 13.2" - this sounds like a Judge interpreting the CPR as they see fit and not following the rules, but what do I know I'm not a lawyer!

I was very unhappy at the hearing that the Judge gave time for CEL to respond to his order, and now it has proved to be the obstacle I feared would allow this nonsense to carry on (was really hoping CEL would not respond after they saw my Draft Defence!)

I need to know exactly what CEL have asked for but as the Courts have not worked on the CEL email yet I have not seen it. So do you think I should email the court and ask to see this email from CEL?