New home, old heating system. What to do?

Oakeshott

So we've just bought our first home. Fortunately we're going into summer, because the heating system here is pants! There's an old immersion heater upstairs and a back boiler (a 'Bermuda SP') downstairs, and the radiators, especially downstairs, take ages to heat up and have cold spots. On top of that the house came with a recent service report which stated the back boiler was 'At Risk' due to an 'undersized air vent and catchment sealed with insulation'. The previous owner was apparently advised to get some work done, but refused. 

So our dilemma, bearing in mind we're not flush with case, is what do we do in terms of upgrades. Our options are: 

1) The cheapest option (on paper): See about getting the problem with the back boiler fixed and replace the downstairs radiators. 

2) The more expensive option, but maybe cheaper in the long-run: Bite the bullet and get the whole system replaced with a new combi boiler and rads throughout. 

I wondered if there were any grants or schemes I could apply to for help with the costs of a more efficient boiler—and what better place to ask than MSE! I keep hearing about water pumps, and I know gas boilers are going to be phased out soon, but I just don't know what to do. 

cc58

i think you already know the answer to the question and its always do it right first time. With this whole switch to heat pumps and phasing out boilers I think you'll struggle to get a grant. I would suggest sitting down and working out what you can afford to spend, planning your finances and then look into 0% credit cards that you and your partner will be eligible to get. If managed correctly debit is not inherently bad, my partner and I used them a few times when we moved into our first place and allowed us to make big purchases that we wouldnt be able to pay upfront but over time were affordable.  
you should be able to get a 0% purchase card for 18-24 months (havent looked into offers recently as I havent needed one but that used to be around the duration) and then once you get towards the end of the term and if you havent paid it all off you could look into 0% balance transfer cards. Id always go down this road over loans as its essentially interest free as long as you keep to the terms.

you may not have £10k up front but could you pay off £277 a month for the next 36 months? i think thats doable for most. Also factor in the money you will save with a more efficient system.
if you go this route also I guess make sure you buy all the stuff yourself either at a merchants or online for the lowest price you can get and depending on how handy you are, do as much of the DIY as possible.

good luck 

Oakeshott

cc58 said:

you may not have £10k up front but could you pay off £277 a month for the next 36 months? i think thats doable for most. Also factor in the money you will save with a more efficient system.
if you go this route also I guess make sure you buy all the stuff yourself either at a merchants or online for the lowest price you can get and depending on how handy you are, do as much of the DIY as possible.

good luck 

Thanks, but £10k? Surely I can't be looking at that much for a new combi and rads? But yes, that sounds like a good way of getting it done, using 0% cards, and hopefully paying off a good chunk of it up front. 

cc58

Oakeshott said:

cc58 said:

you may not have £10k up front but could you pay off £277 a month for the next 36 months? i think thats doable for most. Also factor in the money you will save with a more efficient system.
if you go this route also I guess make sure you buy all the stuff yourself either at a merchants or online for the lowest price you can get and depending on how handy you are, do as much of the DIY as possible.

good luck 

Thanks, but £10k? Surely I can't be looking at that much for a new combi and rads? But yes, that sounds like a good way of getting it done, using 0% cards, and hopefully paying off a good chunk of it up front. 

depends on the size of your house but a decent combi that would suit a decent sized house can easily set you back 2k +, new radiators, new pipe work, materials to sort out the mess and getting someone to fit it all, £10k is definitely high side but not out of this world.

Bendy_House

Hi Oak.

I don't know anything abut grants and stuff, and my understanding of AorGSHPs are that they need a high level of house insulation, coupled with either UFH or over-sized rads to work. So essentially a shedload of work and cost. If you can get a grant, then great. If you cannot, it'll cost.

Gas boilers will be phased out, but are still the 'best' option cost-wise for now.

Your absolutely cheapest 'outlay' option is to sort the vent and sort the 'catchment insulation'; issue, whatever the hell that is. Have a magnetic filter fitted in the return pipe to the boiler - around £100 - and add a dose of system cleaner. That'll hopefully get you up and running for little outlay, but these backboilers are not very efficient. Cost? £100's.

Once your system has largely cleaned itself, it may then be possible to switch it over to a combi boiler, allowing for an additional 'powerflush' to get your system properly clean. Cost? £2-3k.

This should 'work', but will never be ideal as the new boiler will likely only be partially 'condensing', so not nearly as efficient as it could be. It also relies on the existing rads being ok, and not rusted through! To get a modern boiler working at its max efficiency, it needs to be run as cool as possible, so if your rads USED to be 'piping' hot to properly heat your house, then you'll likely struggle with the cooler new boiler - the rads won't be 'ouch!' hot any more, or won't be efficient if you do turn it up. The answer is, any rad you need to replace (and ideally in the most used living areas), then go 'over-sized'. Ie, double-panels instead of single. Extra 'fins'. Larger width/height, that sort of thing. That will all help - you can run the boiler 'cooler' and still get the 'same' overall heat out as before. Cost? Each rad - £100-200.

And then there's a complete renewal of your whole CH system. DEF go 'oversized' rads, or - if you can stretch to it - UFH. Cost? £GET QUOTES!

The SINGLE biggest thing you can do, tho', is I understand - INSULATE! If your house needs cosmetic work, then try and factor this in. Insulation can cost STUPID money, but grants should be available. Basics, in order, tho'; look at draft-proofing your floor (and add insulation is you can), add internal insulation to all the outside walls, and obvious 'loft'. This should not cost a lot, and shouldn't be a major hassle IF you also decorating. Even the thinnest insulated plasterboard - an inch - will transform the wall insulation. Go more if you can lose the space.

External wall insulation will save internal space, but will be very costly, and overall less effective. (Imo at least).

Oakeshott

Thanks. I'm leaning towards a new combi boiler, new rads (most of them are quite old), keep the old pipework (I presume this is the main thing you're cleaning out with the 'powerflush'—which will hopefully save some money), and doing the most 'bang for buck' insulation work. Our EPC report said loft insulation alone would save ~£300/year minimum and so should pay for itself in a year. 

If I can get all of that done for £3–4k then I'll bite the bullet. It's a big expense for us, but it's got to add to the value of the house, so it's probably worth the investment. 

FreeBear

Oakeshott said: So we've just bought our first home. Fortunately we're going into summer, because the heating system here is pants! There's an old immersion heater upstairs and a back boiler (a 'Bermuda SP') downstairs, and the radiators, especially downstairs, take ages to heat up and have cold spots. On top of that the house came with a recent service report which stated the back boiler was 'At Risk' due to an 'undersized air vent and catchment sealed with insulation'.

Guessing this is a fairly old house ?

Baxi Bermuda back boilers haven't been fitted for ~20 years, and whilst not the most efficient (65-76% depending on model), there is precious little inside to go wrong - Got one here.. The one thing I really dislike is having a ruddy great hole in the wall to let freezing cold air in. It makes the room uncomfortably cold during the winter.... I'll be looking at adding ducting so that the air can go from vent to fireplace. The radiators have already been replaced (and TRVs added) - Gone from type 10 (single panel, no fins) to type 11 (single panel, single set of fins) and type 21 (double panel, single fins) in most rooms. After balancing, the old Baxi performs adequately and keeps the house reasonably warm - Used about 8,000KWh of gas last year.

Plugging draughts and insulating has made a huge difference in the rooms done to date - Killing draughts is a fairly low cost exercise that has a large return on investment. Updating the control system is another area that can help to save money. A programmable thermostat that allows for different temperatures throughout the day helps to cut gas consumption - Something like a two channel Drayton Wiser would probably work (and fit a tank thermostat as well).

Oakeshott

Is a smart meter another thing worth getting if the aim is a more efficient system? 

FreeBear

Oakeshott said: Is a smart meter another thing worth getting if the aim is a more efficient system? 

A smart gas/electricity meter ?

They won't save you any energy by themselves. The In House Display gives you an indication of near instantaneous use (30 min updates on gas), so gives you the opportunity to see when consumption is high and take measures to cut back. They are only as smart as the person looking at the display.

Bendy_House

Oakeshott said:

Thanks. I'm leaning towards a new combi boiler, new rads (most of them are quite old), keep the old pipework (I presume this is the main thing you're cleaning out with the 'powerflush'—which will hopefully save some money), and doing the most 'bang for buck' insulation work. Our EPC report said loft insulation alone would save ~£300/year minimum and so should pay for itself in a year. 

If I can get all of that done for £3–4k then I'll bite the bullet. It's a big expense for us, but it's got to add to the value of the house, so it's probably worth the investment. 

Yes, if you get rid of the old rads, that should also lose most of the sludge. Some will remain in the pipes, especially lower ones, but a new boiler should come with a system clean too.
Depending on how your house is laid out, if the bedrooms are all in one area, say upstairs, then seriously consider separating that into a second zone which will have its own Prog Stat. That way they will only heat up when actually timed to do so, and you won't need to run around the house turning down bedroom TRVs every morning, and back on in the late eve.
New rads will give you the opportunity to 'oversize', so that's ideal.

twopenny

If you want a quick short term fix while you study the options have you asked a heating engineer whether a power flush and balancing the radiators would give you a year or two of better heating?
About £100
How bad is the hot water tank? Having one gas with electric option is worth it in power cuts when you have hot water.
I agree insulation is your first priority.
I wonder if the boiler is that dire. Have you had a few independent heating guys look? If they know your scared about the reports about the boiler being bad they'll happily fit a new one. If they know you want time a good one will advise if it's just 'latest legislation' or really wrong.
Time to decide what is the right set up for you is important. And wher the radiators will go once you've settled in. How you find you are going to live in a house before shelling out saves money and frustration in the near future