Are you being paid the national minimum wage?

Naf

I tell you what, the fact that an employer saying "you need black polo, trousers, and shoes" has to be covered over and above NMW really needs to be publicised way more than it is! Loads of small businesses paying bang on min. wage just expect staff to have/get their own basic items of clothing like this. Until I read this guide I had no idea - and I'm generally pretty good on knowing my basic employment rights.

I wonder, though, what guidelines exist as to how they should be calculating how much the stuff costs, or how often it needs to be replaced? Like saying you can get a £20 pair of shoes in Asda every year is all well and good, but those realistically aren't going to last a year for a bunch of jobs, and aren't going to provide adequate support for many others. What decides what's appropriate?

I was also reading that if they want to make deductions for uniform, then they can't spread the costs - their wage has to cover it over and above NMW in a single pay period; does anything similar apply for costs for uniform purchased yourself from a third party?

Own_Worst_Enermy

Noticed an increase in how Employers will advertise a salary bracket and then still repeatedly ask during recruitment how much do they want to earn. 

Plus there is the ideal ‘first time’ varied and so very much more interesting junior jobs paying 15-17k which a mid-lifer is hardly/barely going to survive on and I doubt the Employer is going to want someone in their 40’s or 50’s from a previous ‘basic job’ really applying for knowing they would then be underpaying.

Interesting times.

Ath_Wat

Own_Worst_Enermy said:

Noticed an increase in how Employers will advertise a salary bracket and then still repeatedly ask during recruitment how much do they want to earn. 

Plus there is the ideal ‘first time’ varied and so very much more interesting junior jobs paying 15-17k which a mid-lifer is hardly/barely going to survive on and I doubt the Employer is going to want someone in their 40’s or 50’s from a previous ‘basic job’ really applying for knowing they would then be underpaying.

Interesting times.

Why don't you try staying in a  job more than a few weeks?  Then you wouldn't have to keep starting at the bottom.

Nmwspecialist

Naf said:

I tell you what, the fact that an employer saying "you need black polo, trousers, and shoes" has to be covered over and above NMW really needs to be publicised way more than it is! Loads of small businesses paying bang on min. wage just expect staff to have/get their own basic items of clothing like this. Until I read this guide I had no idea - and I'm generally pretty good on knowing my basic employment rights.

I wonder, though, what guidelines exist as to how they should be calculating how much the stuff costs, or how often it needs to be replaced? Like saying you can get a £20 pair of shoes in Asda every year is all well and good, but those realistically aren't going to last a year for a bunch of jobs, and aren't going to provide adequate support for many others. What decides what's appropriate?

I was also reading that if they want to make deductions for uniform, then they can't spread the costs - their wage has to cover it over and above NMW in a single pay period; does anything similar apply for costs for uniform purchased yourself from a third party?

During a NMW investigation HMRC use various methods to calculate a uniform or dress code policy requirement. This will take into account the sector they work in and the realistic replenishment requirement of the clothes/shoes.
For full time hospitality sector staff HMRC have suggested an annual requirement of
trousers x 4
shirt x 8
shoes x 2
this is obviously dependent on the quality of the garments purchased.- cheaper items may need replacing more frequently.

Usually the cost of the garments are included in the pay period they are purchased but not everyone has the evidence to demonstrate this, therefore, HMRC will typically nominate 2 pay periods in a year where the deductions would be included in the NMW pay calculations. Obviously if workers are paid at the NMW/NLW rate the deductions in the 2 pay periods will cause a NMW breach if not topped up by the employer.

Undervalued

Nmwspecialist said:

Jillanddy said:

Nmwspecialist said:

This is amazing that you and the MSE team are spotlighting this very important issue. The legislation is full of pitfalls which employers fall into regularly. Underpayments are NOT just for those paid at or close to NMW rates - I regularly see cases where employees are paid in excess of £40K pa and are found to have underpayments.
I'm a former HMRC NMW investigator turned advisor so have a unique skill set to answer any NMW query.

Hmm. Really? 7 posts? Not touting for business I hope? I'm sure you're skills will be useful on the site. On the site. 

@Jillanddy - genuine professional - just sharing my expertise in this complex area. I’m new to this forum but hope to help others if needed.

Which is great. However the problem with this type of forum is that nobody can verify the qualifications and / or experience that any poster may claim to have.

That is why it is essential that any advice is given on the forum and not through private messages. That way anybody who disagrees with the advice offered can respond and say why they believe it to be wrong.

SPRINGMAN2023

The UK minimum wage

	Apprentices	Under-18	Age 18-20	Age 21-22	Age 23+
Rates since 1 April 2023	£5.28	£5.28	£7.49	£10.18	£10.42

These rates apply to everyone, even if you're not paid hourly. For example, if you're 23 or older, and working 35 hours a week, your annual salary must be at least £19,964.

Can Anyone explain the above for annual salary?

elsien

Jillanddy said:

joff70 said:

Just stumbled on this,  Where do these now guidelines stand towards sleep in back pay and the Mencap verdict as of March 2021?   I worked for 12 years in social care Learning Disability services and worked on approximately 2 sleep ins a week £30 for a 8H on site on call which was attached onto a 12 day shift  (so would go home the next morning)  I worked for the NHS so my wages were over NML and so the trust to conform to the law as they told us would average out our wages with hours (which would bring hourly rate just above NML). We questioned at the time that this meant that we were then being paid below the advised hourly rate for pay, but got no were, even when  we highlighted dependent on sex and circumstance some workers did no sleep in shifts so those on these shifts were paid more per hour then those working on there rota sleep ins???  Again no response and after over 5 years there are no answers to this question!!!

As I understand it there is no ruling that enforces backpayment, and in most cases it would be impossible to calculate it anyway.

I am not sure what you think happened in that case, but Mencap won. So the Supreme Court said that they did not have to pay the backpay. The Supreme Court decided, whether one agrees or not, that sleep-in shifts are not the same as waking shifts, and that the NMW was not due to be paid unless a worker was awake and working. Therefore, in order to have any kind of potential case, you would need to be able to evidence exactly which times during those shifts that you were awake and working. Those are the only hours for which NMW applies. And that is still the case. Then you would need to find a court that has jurisdiction. Technically if you can prove a debt you can make a claim in civil courts, but only for 6 years back in England and Wales, 5 in Scotland. Then the NHS will point out that the law doesn't recognise this debt, so it would have to go to an employment tribunal, who would throw out the case because it happened more than 3 months ago. 

In other words, right or wrong, what was done is done; and the situation is still far from satisfactory going forward.

When worked in this type of setting, If we were disturbed during the night we were paid time and a half for any time we were up after the first hour. Which was rubbish if you were disturbed several times but does mean that we probably still be over national minimum wage in those circumstances. 

lincroft1710

elsien said:

Jillanddy said:

joff70 said:

Just stumbled on this,  Where do these now guidelines stand towards sleep in back pay and the Mencap verdict as of March 2021?   I worked for 12 years in social care Learning Disability services and worked on approximately 2 sleep ins a week £30 for a 8H on site on call which was attached onto a 12 day shift  (so would go home the next morning)  I worked for the NHS so my wages were over NML and so the trust to conform to the law as they told us would average out our wages with hours (which would bring hourly rate just above NML). We questioned at the time that this meant that we were then being paid below the advised hourly rate for pay, but got no were, even when  we highlighted dependent on sex and circumstance some workers did no sleep in shifts so those on these shifts were paid more per hour then those working on there rota sleep ins???  Again no response and after over 5 years there are no answers to this question!!!

As I understand it there is no ruling that enforces backpayment, and in most cases it would be impossible to calculate it anyway.

I am not sure what you think happened in that case, but Mencap won. So the Supreme Court said that they did not have to pay the backpay. The Supreme Court decided, whether one agrees or not, that sleep-in shifts are not the same as waking shifts, and that the NMW was not due to be paid unless a worker was awake and working. Therefore, in order to have any kind of potential case, you would need to be able to evidence exactly which times during those shifts that you were awake and working. Those are the only hours for which NMW applies. And that is still the case. Then you would need to find a court that has jurisdiction. Technically if you can prove a debt you can make a claim in civil courts, but only for 6 years back in England and Wales, 5 in Scotland. Then the NHS will point out that the law doesn't recognise this debt, so it would have to go to an employment tribunal, who would throw out the case because it happened more than 3 months ago. 

In other words, right or wrong, what was done is done; and the situation is still far from satisfactory going forward.

When worked in this type of setting, If we were disturbed during the night we were paid time and a half for any time we were up after the first hour. Which was rubbish if you were disturbed several times but does mean that we probably still be over national minimum wage in those circumstances. 

You've replied to a post that is a year old

Own_Worst_Enermy

Yes yes recent interviews have allbeen for £10.42 per hour.

Although I sounded all wrong, a potential employer called today saying a contact centre of theirs role has risen to £24,000.   I just want the 25% staff discount on their items making life easier and hope I’m first on the list for amazing development in mobility items.

Thanks to the Employer for a great wage 💕

elsien

lincroft1710 said:

elsien said:

Jillanddy said:

joff70 said:

Just stumbled on this,  Where do these now guidelines stand towards sleep in back pay and the Mencap verdict as of March 2021?   I worked for 12 years in social care Learning Disability services and worked on approximately 2 sleep ins a week £30 for a 8H on site on call which was attached onto a 12 day shift  (so would go home the next morning)  I worked for the NHS so my wages were over NML and so the trust to conform to the law as they told us would average out our wages with hours (which would bring hourly rate just above NML). We questioned at the time that this meant that we were then being paid below the advised hourly rate for pay, but got no were, even when  we highlighted dependent on sex and circumstance some workers did no sleep in shifts so those on these shifts were paid more per hour then those working on there rota sleep ins???  Again no response and after over 5 years there are no answers to this question!!!

As I understand it there is no ruling that enforces backpayment, and in most cases it would be impossible to calculate it anyway.

I am not sure what you think happened in that case, but Mencap won. So the Supreme Court said that they did not have to pay the backpay. The Supreme Court decided, whether one agrees or not, that sleep-in shifts are not the same as waking shifts, and that the NMW was not due to be paid unless a worker was awake and working. Therefore, in order to have any kind of potential case, you would need to be able to evidence exactly which times during those shifts that you were awake and working. Those are the only hours for which NMW applies. And that is still the case. Then you would need to find a court that has jurisdiction. Technically if you can prove a debt you can make a claim in civil courts, but only for 6 years back in England and Wales, 5 in Scotland. Then the NHS will point out that the law doesn't recognise this debt, so it would have to go to an employment tribunal, who would throw out the case because it happened more than 3 months ago. 

In other words, right or wrong, what was done is done; and the situation is still far from satisfactory going forward.

When worked in this type of setting, If we were disturbed during the night we were paid time and a half for any time we were up after the first hour. Which was rubbish if you were disturbed several times but does mean that we probably still be over national minimum wage in those circumstances. 

You've replied to a post that is a year old

Well spotted. Wasn’t me who dragged it back up though