Company not refunding for returned goods

IS78

I ordered an item online and the company sent the wrong item. 

The company say they offer free and easy returns but when I tried to book the return collection it wouldn’t accept my order number, so I could never book a return pickup slot. I emailed the company several times but they didn’t respond. When I went onto their live help they said someone would contact me within 24hours but never did.

Being conscious of the time that had now passed, as I had paid by PayPal I opened a PayPal case. The company responded within a few hours, accepted the return and gave me an address to return the item to - this was the same address that was on the prepaid return label I couldn’t use inside the original order.

When I tried booking the company’s preferred courier they wouldn’t allow me to book a collection with them only drop off but the nearest drop off point was over 30 miles away.  So I chose UPS, who delivered the item in the first place.

Item returned in original packaging, with unused return label and original invoice in box. 

At this point I get Covid, despite being vaccinated, end up in hospital. Couldn’t responded to PayPal within a certain timeframe, the PayPal app on phones won’t load the resolution centre, and they close the claim I made. 

The company deny receiving the return.  

When I contact UPS they confirm delivery.

When the company contacted UPS they also confirm delivery - the company sent me a copy of an email UPS had sent to them confirming delivery. 

I had the manager of the local UPS depot who serves the company’s return warehouse contact me and said on the street of the return address only this companies warehouse and EU headquarters exist. They have checked the driver’s transponder data, etc and it has been delivered correctly. UPS actually handle the continental European returns for the company and pickup outgoing orders from this address.

The company refuse to accept any proof from UPS by saying “it is simply a declaration not proof”. 

The company say as it was not their courier they are not responsible for lost packages, but the return has not been lost. They consider it lost because their warehouse does not have a return scan. 

I think the problem here is that UPS did deliver the return but then the company may have lost it and this is where we have reached a stale mate. 

The company’s return policy says this: 

“Returns may be made within 30 days from the date of delivery by returning your item by carrier to the address on the return shipping label……”

“All returns shipped using the prepaid shipping label are complimentary. Please note X is not liable for merchandise returned through an alternative carrier service, we recommend using the prepaid label. If for any reason you don’t receive your prepaid shipping label or you can’t locate it, please contact us.”

The company is American, I bought the item from their UK, .com/uk, website. The company have physical stores in the UK and the company is registered on companies house. 

 Do I have to right this off as a loss?

lisyloo

The first thing I would do is find out whether you are dealing under uk law (check terms and conditions).

how much is the item worth - asking to see if small claims is viable.

Ath_Wat

What proof do UPS claim to have have other than a simple declaration by themselves that they delivered?  Whatever their driver's transponders say, what they need is an acknowledgement from the  destination company that they received it.  The van having gone there proves nothing; if this is a big company as you imply and they had several deliveries for them nothing would be easier than one getting left in the van and lost later.

At the moment as far as I can see UPS can't prove they delivered it and your dispute is with them.

IS78

lisyloo said:

The first thing I would do is find out whether you are dealing under uk law (check terms and conditions).

how much is the item worth - asking to see if small claims is viable.

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry I’m not very good when it comes to legal terms, this is in their terms and conditions:

“15. Applicable law and competent jurisdiction

15.1 These General Conditions and, therefore, the Contracts executed with the Clients, shall be governed by, and will be interpreted in accordance with English laws.”

The items value is £648.

IS78

Ath_Wat said:

What proof do UPS claim to have have other than a simple declaration by themselves that they delivered?  Whatever their driver's transponders say, what they need is an acknowledgement from the  destination company that they received it.  The van having gone there proves nothing; if this is a big company as you imply and they had several deliveries for them nothing would be easier than one getting left in the van and lost later.

At the moment as far as I can see UPS can't prove they delivered it and your dispute is with them.

Additionally the parcels get individually scanned when delivered and the GPS is recorded by handheld device. Trust me, I have talked about this in great lengths with UPS. 

I have tried to dispute it with UPS but they confirm the delivery with these two factors, transponder and GPS. 

tightauldgit

If I'm reading your post right the returned parcel didn't have a proper returns label on it? Therefore what's 99% likely happened is that it's arrived at the seller's warehouse, they've not been able to scan it into the system and so it's not been processed. It'll appear that they never received it because they haven't scanned it in. It may just be sitting in a bin there waiting to be looked at or they might just throw the stuff away that's not correctly labelled.

Beyond that I don't know what rights you have and whether it being incorrectly labelled will be a get out or not for the company. I imagine that you would have to go to small claims to get anything judging by the history so far. Normally i would say if you haven't followed the process you'd be out of luck, but if you tried to follow the process and couldn't then that MIGHT work in your favour. 

I don't think UPS will be able to help you any further as they did their part it appears.

IS78

tightauldgit said:

If I'm reading your post right the returned parcel didn't have a proper returns label on it? Therefore what's 99% likely happened is that it's arrived at the seller's warehouse, they've not been able to scan it into the system and so it's not been processed. It'll appear that they never received it because they haven't scanned it in. It may just be sitting in a bin there waiting to be looked at or they might just throw the stuff away that's not correctly labelled.

Beyond that I don't know what rights you have and whether it being incorrectly labelled will be a get out or not for the company. I imagine that you would have to go to small claims to get anything judging by the history so far. Normally i would say if you haven't followed the process you'd be out of luck, but if you tried to follow the process and couldn't then that MIGHT work in your favour. 

I don't think UPS will be able to help you any further as they did their part it appears.

Yes, I assume that’s the type of scenario that has happened. However the company don’t explicitly say not to use a different courier, or their prepaid label, just they will not be liable for loss if you do. So they must have some internal system in place for customers who have arranged their own returns. 

And it has been several months now, so I would have thought at some point they would have opened the parcel? As soon as it was opened they would see unused returns label and invoice. 

This is just my own assumptions but I think the company might have had some internal computer glitch surrounding my order. Two days after I placed the order the company emailed me to say they hadn’t received payment and would only reserve the stock for 48hours. Once I emailed them back with the payment transaction reference only then did they confirm payment and the order would be processed. 

 When I placed the order I completed the checkout received the usual order/payment confirmation emails for the company and PayPal. Several times I’ve tried going onto their website and checking out, it is impossible to complete the checkout process without paying. 

They are a big company, who I have bought from before, so didn’t think anything of it at the time. It would also account for why my order number wasn’t accepted when trying to book the return pickup. 

lisyloo

If you can afford to go to the small claims court, I’d send them a letter before action.
personally I send these recorded delivery (especially as this company “lose”things).

if you’ve a free legal helpline as part of your home insurance they may be able to give an opinion from a Professional solicitor.

Ath_Wat

IS78 said:

Ath_Wat said:

What proof do UPS claim to have have other than a simple declaration by themselves that they delivered?  Whatever their driver's transponders say, what they need is an acknowledgement from the  destination company that they received it.  The van having gone there proves nothing; if this is a big company as you imply and they had several deliveries for them nothing would be easier than one getting left in the van and lost later.

At the moment as far as I can see UPS can't prove they delivered it and your dispute is with them.

Additionally the parcels get individually scanned when delivered and the GPS is recorded by handheld device. Trust me, I have talked about this in great lengths with UPS. 

I have tried to dispute it with UPS but they confirm the delivery with these two factors, transponder and GPS. 

UPS are saying that the evidence they have is good enough for them.

The company you returned it to are saying UPS's evidence is not good enough for them.

So your problem is whether UPS's evidence is good enough for a court.  Or rather whether the evidence you can present from UPS at second hand is good enough for a court.

Jenni_D

A court will rule "on the balance of probabilities" ... if the OP's courier are adamant that delivery was completed, and the OP can evidence that from their courier's records, then "on the balance of probabilities" the goods were returned, and the failing lies with the recipient who would have to prove otherwise (again OTBOP).

IMHO, IANAL etc.

Ath_Wat

Jenni_D said:

A court will rule "on the balance of probabilities" ... if the OP's courier are adamant that delivery was completed, and the OP can evidence that from their courier's records, then "on the balance of probabilities" the goods were returned, and the failing lies with the recipient who would have to prove otherwise (again OTBOP).

IMHO, IANAL etc.

Well indeed.  And (with the same qualifications as above, IANAL either)  whether they need to be suing UPS or the end company is entirely dependent on what they think the court will decide on that. 

Without seeing what they have from UPS it's impossible to say. It's pretty difficult anyway as it depends on the judge on the day to a large extent.  The fact that UPS "are adamant the goods were delivered" is nowhere near enough as they have a vested interest in saying so; it's worth no more than the end company being adamant they weren't, as if the end company are right, it should be UPS defending the suit as they are the ones liable for the £650.

Of course if they sue UPS the court will have direct statements from UPS saying they did deliver, whereas if they sue the end company all evidence of delivery will be second hand, and therefore be given that much less weight.