Employee rights and advice

Ath_Wat

Jillanddy said:

unforeseen said:

In our public authority the "employers reference" must be from the current manager or HR (which in itself would ring some alarm bells as managers would normally provide the reference, so we would wonder why HR were doing it); 

In my current and previous company (both private) , all requests for employer references would be passed to HR who would just supply the basics.

I think that does happen more often in the private sector. But basic references aren't universal, and most public sector employers don't give them. Again, in my experience of the public sector, I have literally never seen one. 

All I have ever done (always in the private sector) is give the names and addresses of the previous companies I have worked for on my CV - never individual people, just the company name.  Who a prospective employer then approaches for a reference and how is completely out of my hands.  I don't even know for certain whether any of them ever even have.  I presume they have, but I was never aware of it.

Ath_Wat

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

unforeseen said:

In our public authority the "employers reference" must be from the current manager or HR (which in itself would ring some alarm bells as managers would normally provide the reference, so we would wonder why HR were doing it); 

In my current and previous company (both private) , all requests for employer references would be passed to HR who would just supply the basics.

I think that does happen more often in the private sector. But basic references aren't universal, and most public sector employers don't give them. Again, in my experience of the public sector, I have literally never seen one. 

All I have ever done (always in the private sector) is give the names and addresses of the previous companies I have worked for on my CV - never individual people, just the company name.  Who a prospective employer then approaches for a reference and how is completely out of my hands.  I don't even know for certain whether any of them ever even have.  I presume they have, but I was never aware of it.

I am sure that is true. It is also one of the scariest things I've heard. It may be fine in the private sector. But it shouldn't be in any sector.  I have many doubts about references. I have many doubts about recruitment practices. But no references at all is deeply disturbing- and in some areas of work,  illegal! 

Oh, I am not saying that they haven't; they probably have.  Just that it's not a process I am part of. I don't provide references, they approach the companies I have worked for and get them.  Whether they get one, two or one each from every company listed on my CV is up to them; they have all the information they need just from that.  So worrying about "who to put down as a reference" is completely outside my experience; everyone I have ever worked with is a potential reference, and the decision on who that reference comes from is made by my previous companies when approached.

Ath_Wat

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

unforeseen said:

In our public authority the "employers reference" must be from the current manager or HR (which in itself would ring some alarm bells as managers would normally provide the reference, so we would wonder why HR were doing it); 

In my current and previous company (both private) , all requests for employer references would be passed to HR who would just supply the basics.

I think that does happen more often in the private sector. But basic references aren't universal, and most public sector employers don't give them. Again, in my experience of the public sector, I have literally never seen one. 

All I have ever done (always in the private sector) is give the names and addresses of the previous companies I have worked for on my CV - never individual people, just the company name.  Who a prospective employer then approaches for a reference and how is completely out of my hands.  I don't even know for certain whether any of them ever even have.  I presume they have, but I was never aware of it.

I am sure that is true. It is also one of the scariest things I've heard. It may be fine in the private sector. But it shouldn't be in any sector.  I have many doubts about references. I have many doubts about recruitment practices. But no references at all is deeply disturbing- and in some areas of work,  illegal! 

Oh, I am not saying that they haven't; they probably have.  Just that it's not a process I am part of. I don't provide references, they approach the companies I have worked for and get them.  Whether they get one, two or one each from every company listed on my CV is up to them; they have all the information they need just from that.  So worrying about "who to put down as a reference" is completely outside my experience; everyone I have ever worked with is a potential reference, and the decision on who that reference comes from is made by my previous companies when approached.

For many people that wouldn't be the norm. They would need to specify a person. The OP is likely in that situation.  To be fair,  if someone asked most public sector employers for a reference without specifying a person, HR would likely just hunt down the manager anyway. 

I never claimed it was the norm for everyone, just for me, and presumably therefore for a fair number of other people as well.  Not everyone works in the public sector, and if public sector employers are assuming that private sector candidates must have bad references if they come from HR, a claim which initiated this exchange, then public sector employers are behaving extremely ignorantly.

That apart, what advantage do you believe there is in asking for a specific named reference?  Surely asking the previous company "can I have a reference from the person YOU best think is suited to give me a reference for this person?" is far more likely to produce something useful?

Ath_Wat

Jillanddy said:

I didn't suggest that there is any advantage in asking for a specific named reference. I don't even think references have much value. But that isn't the OP's question. They need to be able to get a reference from a line manager, they have said, and so what I think isn't relevant to it. 

It might not be the original question but when somebody (not you) in a thread like this suggests that a reference from HR will automatically be treated as suspicious, is that worth correcting?  All I did is point out my different experience and you have continually just said "well the public sector is different", which I know already.  You said.  I've never said that what you offered was not valid but you seem to determined to try and prove that what I offered wasn't, for some reason.

Andy_L

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

unforeseen said:

In our public authority the "employers reference" must be from the current manager or HR (which in itself would ring some alarm bells as managers would normally provide the reference, so we would wonder why HR were doing it); 

In my current and previous company (both private) , all requests for employer references would be passed to HR who would just supply the basics.

I think that does happen more often in the private sector. But basic references aren't universal, and most public sector employers don't give them. Again, in my experience of the public sector, I have literally never seen one. 

All I have ever done (always in the private sector) is give the names and addresses of the previous companies I have worked for on my CV - never individual people, just the company name.  Who a prospective employer then approaches for a reference and how is completely out of my hands.  I don't even know for certain whether any of them ever even have.  I presume they have, but I was never aware of it.

I am sure that is true. It is also one of the scariest things I've heard. It may be fine in the private sector. But it shouldn't be in any sector.  I have many doubts about references. I have many doubts about recruitment practices. But no references at all is deeply disturbing- and in some areas of work,  illegal! 

Oh, I am not saying that they haven't; they probably have.  Just that it's not a process I am part of. I don't provide references, they approach the companies I have worked for and get them.  Whether they get one, two or one each from every company listed on my CV is up to them; they have all the information they need just from that.  So worrying about "who to put down as a reference" is completely outside my experience; everyone I have ever worked with is a potential reference, and the decision on who that reference comes from is made by my previous companies when approached.

For many people that wouldn't be the norm. They would need to specify a person. The OP is likely in that situation.  To be fair,  if someone asked most public sector employers for a reference without specifying a person, HR would likely just hunt down the manager anyway. 

I never claimed it was the norm for everyone, just for me, and presumably therefore for a fair number of other people as well.  Not everyone works in the public sector, and if public sector employers are assuming that private sector candidates must have bad references if they come from HR, a claim which initiated this exchange, then public sector employers are behaving extremely ignorantly.

That apart, what advantage do you believe there is in asking for a specific named reference?  Surely asking the previous company "can I have a reference from the person YOU best think is suited to give me a reference for this person?" is far more likely to produce something useful?

I am not disagreeing with you as a general principle. Different employers / sectors do things differently. And I am aware that not everyone works in the public sector. But the OP has said that they do. So my comments are based on what the OP asked, not on what might apply to someone else. And I was specific in saying that in the public sector HR are not normally involved in writing references and it would normally be the line manager. I wasn't commenting on incoming private sector references, but public sector ones. It would raise eyebrows if a public sector reference came from HR because that isn't the norm. 

I didn't suggest that there is any advantage in asking for a specific named reference. I don't even think references have much value. But that isn't the OP's question. They need to be able to get a reference from a line manager, they have said, and so what I think isn't relevant to it. 

From personal experience, in both Civil Service & NHS, HR must do the reference - the line manager is not allowed to. 

[Deleted User]

Andy_L said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

Ath_Wat said:

Jillanddy said:

unforeseen said:

In our public authority the "employers reference" must be from the current manager or HR (which in itself would ring some alarm bells as managers would normally provide the reference, so we would wonder why HR were doing it); 

In my current and previous company (both private) , all requests for employer references would be passed to HR who would just supply the basics.

I think that does happen more often in the private sector. But basic references aren't universal, and most public sector employers don't give them. Again, in my experience of the public sector, I have literally never seen one. 

All I have ever done (always in the private sector) is give the names and addresses of the previous companies I have worked for on my CV - never individual people, just the company name.  Who a prospective employer then approaches for a reference and how is completely out of my hands.  I don't even know for certain whether any of them ever even have.  I presume they have, but I was never aware of it.

I am sure that is true. It is also one of the scariest things I've heard. It may be fine in the private sector. But it shouldn't be in any sector.  I have many doubts about references. I have many doubts about recruitment practices. But no references at all is deeply disturbing- and in some areas of work,  illegal! 

Oh, I am not saying that they haven't; they probably have.  Just that it's not a process I am part of. I don't provide references, they approach the companies I have worked for and get them.  Whether they get one, two or one each from every company listed on my CV is up to them; they have all the information they need just from that.  So worrying about "who to put down as a reference" is completely outside my experience; everyone I have ever worked with is a potential reference, and the decision on who that reference comes from is made by my previous companies when approached.

For many people that wouldn't be the norm. They would need to specify a person. The OP is likely in that situation.  To be fair,  if someone asked most public sector employers for a reference without specifying a person, HR would likely just hunt down the manager anyway. 

I never claimed it was the norm for everyone, just for me, and presumably therefore for a fair number of other people as well.  Not everyone works in the public sector, and if public sector employers are assuming that private sector candidates must have bad references if they come from HR, a claim which initiated this exchange, then public sector employers are behaving extremely ignorantly.

That apart, what advantage do you believe there is in asking for a specific named reference?  Surely asking the previous company "can I have a reference from the person YOU best think is suited to give me a reference for this person?" is far more likely to produce something useful?

I am not disagreeing with you as a general principle. Different employers / sectors do things differently. And I am aware that not everyone works in the public sector. But the OP has said that they do. So my comments are based on what the OP asked, not on what might apply to someone else. And I was specific in saying that in the public sector HR are not normally involved in writing references and it would normally be the line manager. I wasn't commenting on incoming private sector references, but public sector ones. It would raise eyebrows if a public sector reference came from HR because that isn't the norm. 

I didn't suggest that there is any advantage in asking for a specific named reference. I don't even think references have much value. But that isn't the OP's question. They need to be able to get a reference from a line manager, they have said, and so what I think isn't relevant to it. 

From personal experience, in both Civil Service & NHS, HR must do the reference - the line manager is not allowed to. 

Indeed, this goes to the very heart of the existence of HR, to protect the employer from being put in the legal firing line.