Am I missing something ref price of units?

masonic

EthicsGradient said:

masonic said:

EthicsGradient said:

Thrugelmir said:

EthicsGradient said:

TBC15 said:

masonic said:

TBC15 said:

eskbanker said:

You shouldn't need to be calculating a unit price from units and total consideration - the contract note should clearly show it, so what shows there?

Contract note not available at the moment, details from order detail.

Order detail should show Quantity and Price (and status Executed). If not, you'll probably be getting Monday's price and could complain about the order not being executed in a timely manner.

Status shows as pending.

The plot thickens.

Trustnet gives a price of £1.6928 for the 11th in the portfolio section. It gives a price of £1.7115 in the Funds section

The discrepancy does seem to be between the '9' of the proper price "1.6928", and the '5' in the effective price of "1.6528" your order detail has shown. Perhaps this shows order details are entered by hand, and someone screwed up. If I were you, I'd send II a message now, noting the discrepancy, and asking them to resolve the matter ASAP. When the contract note is produced, see what it says, and then you can either say it's resolved, or point out the problem at once.

If you followed the link I provided earlier. The pricing is very clear. There's been no screw up. 

No, that's still a screw-up, just of a different sort. Using the price fixed on the 9th, when the price on the 10th would have been available for 24 hours (and probably the price on the 11th as well) is a screw-up. When I've had order details from II, they've used the actual price the trade was made at, not one from 48 hours earlier.

The trade is still pending. Prices on funds update the morning after the valuation point. A trade requested on Thursday evening is therefore going to be estimated using Wednesday's price and this will match the price displayed in the portfolio view at that time. The consideration is not updated as the price varies while orders are pending, so it would not be updated at all during Friday, even if executed on Friday. II tends to take a long time to confirm fund orders, usually the working day after execution. This is standard practice at II, so if you think it's a screw-up, then you'd probably brand II a screwed-up platform.

I do agree with you insofar as the consideration should not have been displayed at all until the order has executed. Presumably the estimation is used internally when buying a specified number of units so that they can reject orders where the available funds will be insufficient and reserve an appropriate amount of the available balance for the pending order. I don't see why it is needed at all for sell orders.

When I deal on II, they don't put a price on an unexecuted deal until it's actually been set. Putting Wednesday's price on a deal executed on Friday is wrong. The OP was talking about the price displayed to them either on Friday or, from the wording of the OP, on Saturday, when they posted. In either case, the Thursday price would have been available, although also misleading.

The OP has stated that II didn't put a price on it; the OP has calculated a price from the number of units specified, and the estimated consideration value. II do estimate a consideration value at the time the order is requested using the prevailing price at that time, and they do not update it until the order status moves to executed, which can be up to 2 working days later. I have seen this with my own eyes (for holdings I sold in December and February), and I don't believe this is a freak occurrence for both myself and the OP.

The next time you sell an open ended fund by specifying the number of units, check the pending order details and you will see that it is exactly as the OP has described.

TBC15

Just to let you know, now showing as executed at £1.692799 so all is well.

EthicsGradient

masonic said:

EthicsGradient said:

masonic said:

EthicsGradient said:

Thrugelmir said:

EthicsGradient said:

TBC15 said:

masonic said:

TBC15 said:

eskbanker said:

You shouldn't need to be calculating a unit price from units and total consideration - the contract note should clearly show it, so what shows there?

Contract note not available at the moment, details from order detail.

Order detail should show Quantity and Price (and status Executed). If not, you'll probably be getting Monday's price and could complain about the order not being executed in a timely manner.

Status shows as pending.

The plot thickens.

Trustnet gives a price of £1.6928 for the 11th in the portfolio section. It gives a price of £1.7115 in the Funds section

The discrepancy does seem to be between the '9' of the proper price "1.6928", and the '5' in the effective price of "1.6528" your order detail has shown. Perhaps this shows order details are entered by hand, and someone screwed up. If I were you, I'd send II a message now, noting the discrepancy, and asking them to resolve the matter ASAP. When the contract note is produced, see what it says, and then you can either say it's resolved, or point out the problem at once.

If you followed the link I provided earlier. The pricing is very clear. There's been no screw up. 

No, that's still a screw-up, just of a different sort. Using the price fixed on the 9th, when the price on the 10th would have been available for 24 hours (and probably the price on the 11th as well) is a screw-up. When I've had order details from II, they've used the actual price the trade was made at, not one from 48 hours earlier.

The trade is still pending. Prices on funds update the morning after the valuation point. A trade requested on Thursday evening is therefore going to be estimated using Wednesday's price and this will match the price displayed in the portfolio view at that time. The consideration is not updated as the price varies while orders are pending, so it would not be updated at all during Friday, even if executed on Friday. II tends to take a long time to confirm fund orders, usually the working day after execution. This is standard practice at II, so if you think it's a screw-up, then you'd probably brand II a screwed-up platform.

I do agree with you insofar as the consideration should not have been displayed at all until the order has executed. Presumably the estimation is used internally when buying a specified number of units so that they can reject orders where the available funds will be insufficient and reserve an appropriate amount of the available balance for the pending order. I don't see why it is needed at all for sell orders.

When I deal on II, they don't put a price on an unexecuted deal until it's actually been set. Putting Wednesday's price on a deal executed on Friday is wrong. The OP was talking about the price displayed to them either on Friday or, from the wording of the OP, on Saturday, when they posted. In either case, the Thursday price would have been available, although also misleading.

The OP has stated that II didn't put a price on it; the OP has calculated a price from the number of units specified, and the estimated consideration value. II do estimate a consideration value at the time the order is requested using the prevailing price at that time, and they do not update it until the order status moves to executed, which can be up to 2 working days later. I have seen this with my own eyes (for holdings I sold in December and February), and I don't believe this is a freak occurrence for both myself and the OP.

The next time you sell an open ended fund by specifying the number of units, check the pending order details and you will see that it is exactly as the OP has described.

It happens that I did sell a fixed number of units of an OEIC this week, and they did as you describe. Which is a screw-up. They first set the order "Time" as the time on the Tuesday evening I placed the order, and set the 'Consideration' (sic - nothing about 'estimate') as the value of the holding using the Monday valuation (the Tuesday valuation was already available on the manager's website, having been set at 12pm, but II hadn't yet updated the valuation inside my portfolio at that stage).

Overnight, II updated the valuation in the portfolio, and updated the "Time" in the order detail to "11:15", ie the time they would send the sell request to the manager, but didn't bother updating the "Consideration" in the order detail at the same time. So it was out-of-date and misleading, even compared to the rest of the II site. They didn't update the "Consideration" at any time during Wednesday, though the true valuation was publicly available during the afternoon. By Thursday morning, "Time" was still "11:15" on Wednesday, and they finally gave the true "Consideration".

So their system is set to update the time overnight, but not the amount. They use a figure they know is out-of-date, and have a more recent version of. They could just put "n/a" (as they do for "Settlement Date", before Thursday and the correct details), but they mislead customers, instead.

masonic

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Thrugelmir

masonic said:

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Majorirty of the time the daily price prices don't fluctuate wildly. For someone looking to realise a certain amount of cash, it's a good sense check. Numeric skills aren't generally that good these days. 

masonic

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Majorirty of the time the daily price prices don't fluctuate wildly. For someone looking to realise a certain amount of cash, it's a good sense check. Numeric skills aren't generally that good these days. 

The order amount can be entered either in £ or # units. In practice I doubt people sell a specific number of units unless they are disposing of the entire holding or doing something like selling half. If they wanted to realise a certain amount of cash, they'd specify the amount of cash rather than number of units.

Calculating the estimated value on the trading page is helpful and not at issue here. That provides a useful sense check. The problem is that the estimated consideration finds its way onto the order detail page and appears as though it is the actual consideration achieved.

Thrugelmir

masonic said:

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Majorirty of the time the daily price prices don't fluctuate wildly. For someone looking to realise a certain amount of cash, it's a good sense check. Numeric skills aren't generally that good these days. 

The order amount can be entered either in £ or # units. In practice I doubt people sell a specific number of units unless they are disposing of the entire holding or doing something like selling half. If they wanted to realise a certain amount of cash, they'd specify the amount of cash rather than number of units.

Calculating the estimated value on the trading page is helpful and not at issue here. That provides a useful sense check. The problem is that the estimated consideration finds its way onto the order detail page and appears as though it is the actual consideration achieved.

Just a question of comprehension. Then move on. Nothing is going to change. 

masonic

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Majorirty of the time the daily price prices don't fluctuate wildly. For someone looking to realise a certain amount of cash, it's a good sense check. Numeric skills aren't generally that good these days. 

The order amount can be entered either in £ or # units. In practice I doubt people sell a specific number of units unless they are disposing of the entire holding or doing something like selling half. If they wanted to realise a certain amount of cash, they'd specify the amount of cash rather than number of units.

Calculating the estimated value on the trading page is helpful and not at issue here. That provides a useful sense check. The problem is that the estimated consideration finds its way onto the order detail page and appears as though it is the actual consideration achieved.

Just a question of comprehension. Then move on. Nothing is going to change. 

Agreed. As I stated on the previous page, it is standard practice at II.

EthicsGradient

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

Thrugelmir said:

masonic said:

I agree it is pointless and misleading. It is something I have learned to ignore.

Majorirty of the time the daily price prices don't fluctuate wildly. For someone looking to realise a certain amount of cash, it's a good sense check. Numeric skills aren't generally that good these days. 

The order amount can be entered either in £ or # units. In practice I doubt people sell a specific number of units unless they are disposing of the entire holding or doing something like selling half. If they wanted to realise a certain amount of cash, they'd specify the amount of cash rather than number of units.

Calculating the estimated value on the trading page is helpful and not at issue here. That provides a useful sense check. The problem is that the estimated consideration finds its way onto the order detail page and appears as though it is the actual consideration achieved.

Just a question of comprehension. Then move on. Nothing is going to change. 

But it ought to change. They update the timestamp on the details, but leave the misleading "consideration" there - after the time the deal has been done. The thread starter was misled; so was I, from their accurate description. Nothing on the order detail says the consideration is an "estimate".