Paying for Son in Law's operation

clonkel

Hi, my mum & dad are both in their 80s with poor health (one mental and one physical). They would like to pay for my Brother-in-Laws hip operation as the current wait time in his area is up to 2 years. The cost is around 12k. Would this be seen as wilfully reducing an social care cost or is it acceptable given the one off circumstances?

thank you very much

NCC1701-A

You have POA for them both and look after their finances. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6226900/gift-allowance-and-care-cost

Is it a coincidence the cost of surgery matches the 2 year rolled up gift allowance for them both?

You need to act in their best interests, not your brother in laws.

Savvy_Sue

I don't know, but I think it might well be seen as Deprivation of Assets. But the better question is, does it matter? 

£12K - how much would that reduce your parents assets by, in terms of their overall needs? 

Are they currently paying for care, either at home or in a residential setting? 

Do they each have 'capacity' to make such financial decisions? 

Do they currently own and live in their own home, and does it seem likely they'll have to move into residential care before long?

As an example: if your parents were in a residential setting, which they were required to pay for, and giving £12K to their son-in-law would reduce their savings to the point where the local authority would have to pick up the bill - to me I can't see how that wouldn't be Deprivation. 

But if they were were in a residential setting, and paying £12K would not change the likelihood that their money would last for longer than they're likely to live, then it doesn't matter. 

To put it more crudely, £12K out of £20K is a different situation from £12K out of £1.2mil, and their ownership (or not) of a house may need to be factored in as well. 

Savvy_Sue

NCC1701-A said:

You have POA for them both and look after their finances. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6226900/gift-allowance-and-care-cost

Is it a coincidence the cost of surgery matches the 2 year rolled up gift allowance for them both?

You need to act in their best interests, not your brother in laws.

Having read this then never mind deprivation of assets, as Attorneys you CANNOT give this sum of money away, because this is not in the best interests of your parents. 

If in doubt, ask the Court of Protection. 

However, if your mother retains capacity (the earlier thread indicates Dad does not have capacity), and she is capable of giving this money away herself, from her own assets, then she can still do what she likes. So if she wants to do that, my questions above stand: does it matter? 

Brie

Any reason it couldn't be a loan instead of a gift?  At zero percent over 20 years?  Obviously not if it materially effects them as indicated by Savvy_Sue.

clonkel

thank you for the replies. The operation is legitimate and there is a trail for all of the paperwork/diagnosis etc. Yes it could be a zero percent loan. Yes we have POA but father has made the offer up front. We raised the deprivation of assets when it was suggested. The value of 12k is only an average as it will lie somewhere between 10k and 14k depending upon the provider.

It is around 10% of their cash savings. 

Mother does not have capacity, this is not diagnosed or legal its just that her MH has deteriorated whereas father is fine although his physical health is very poor.

We can structure it either as a gift or loan but the concern, after we mistakenly thought they could gift 3k each per year, was that we did not want to follow up that mistake with another.

I have been in-touch with Age UK who have given me a number to ring on Monday in order to speak with a more technical person.

It should be said that we would manage all of the transactions not Sister or BiL so there is a trail for the LA to follow in the future should that be necessary. The smart money would be on dad going first and mum going into some form of care. Of course I could die tomorrow so who knows.

thanks again.

clonkel

Oh sorry I should have said that @Savvy_Sue and @NCC1701-A have very good point in that we have to manage their interests before BiL's need.

Sea_Shell

Am I right in thinking that if one "goes private" for something like this, you're also liable for all additional and unexpected costs if there are any complications, and further extended treatment, or hospitalisation is required??

Can you "bail out" back to the NHS?

74jax

clonkel said:

Oh sorry I should have said that @Savvy_Sue and @NCC1701-A have very good point in that we have to manage their interests before BiL's need.

Completely. Having POA puts their interests way above the BIL. 

clonkel

@Sea_Shell Yes it is the case that in the case of complications then you are passed back to the NHS (that is my experience but could be different in other cases)

honeypop

Sea_Shell said:

Am I right in thinking that if one "goes private" for something like this, you're also liable for all additional and unexpected costs if there are any complications, and further extended treatment, or hospitalisation is required??

Can you "bail out" back to the NHS?

My husband had a private hip replacement last year and the cost included a certain amount of after-care and rehab/physio, anything that fell outside of that timeframe would either have to be paid for additionally, or diverted back to the NHS where you would be subject to the usual waiting times/lists. The rehab provided privately didn't get him as far as being 'back to normal daily life' so then the option was to pay the hospital to continue, find alternative arrangements and pay for that, or be put on NHS waiting list for physio which at the time was way over a year long and he physically couldn't have waited that long. 

If it helps to know, when he had his private consultation and they provided the costings, he had to specify on a form whether the money was being paid from his own account, insurance, loan etc and as it was being paid by someone else it was requested to be paid directly to the hospital by that person (or from their account). So if it's the same, @clonkel your parents would pay the hospital directly, rather than transferring the amount to your BIL to then pay onwards. Also, maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but the total cost was more than you've referred to.