Bought a car that turned out to be faulty

dillydully

Went to see a car, seller let me do a 5 minute test drive, it was fine, bought the car (apparently it was a part exchange car, no history, seller supposedly drove it 400mi, and said it was fine).
Drove the car around on the same day, after it properly warmed up (about an hour drive) clutch started to judder badly, shakes, the whole front-end jumps.
Went back to seller to show the issue and ask for refund on the grounds of 'missleading advertisement /hidden fault', he refuses and claims he never knew, he said it was 'sold as seen', car was fine on test drive.
I wrote to him on the same night saying the problem got even worse, car stalls and I wont take it unless he fixes it. He said ok, first I should book diagnostics, then take it from there (I hold proof of this).
Next day after car cooled down, its fine again. After it warmed up, its bad again.
I then realised it was a scam, he must've known it, and I don't care if I test drove it or not, as car is fine when is cold, I could not foresee the issue with a quick test drive. I want refund.
He refuses.
On the next day I have official signed diagnostics from a garage saying that car needs whole new clutch assemly since it has severe judder, and many other faults, as ABS sensor, speed sensor, steering angle sensor etc. I also have a screenshot of his advertisement saying 'No Faults at all', and had 'New clutch'. I send it to him asking for refund. He refuses.
If its a private seller, the buyer has next to no rights.
However, if its a dealer, he has to take the car back in this case for a full refund.
I took a screenshot of his profile which shows all in all £65,000 worth of vehicles; cars, camper vans, boats.

Would the proof I hold be enough for a judge to decide that seller is a dealer and not private?

How long a case like this would generally take on the Small Claim Court?


I would appreciate any help and advice.

tacpot12

The fact that he took the car in part-exchange seems to indicate he is a dealer. The standard of proof in civil cases is the "balance of probabilities"; a judge will look to see if it is more likely than not that he is a dealer. It would be for the 'dealer' to show that the goods were his own private possessions that he had decided to sell. They might do that by showing that they bought the goods over a long period of time, and bought them from retailers rather from auctions sites/other dealers. 

dillydully

tacpot12 said:

The fact that he took the car in part-exchange seems to indicate he is a dealer. The standard of proof in civil cases is the "balance of probabilities"; a judge will look to see if it is more likely than not that he is a dealer. It would be for the 'dealer' to show that the goods were his own private possessions that he had decided to sell. They might do that by showing that they bought the goods over a long period of time, and bought them from retailers rather from auctions sites/other dealers. 

Thanks for your reply.
I think he said he knows someone who took this car as part-exchange and let him to sell it... That someone he mentioned is actually working for a car dealership.... that underlines everything you just said.

motorguy

dillydully said:

Went to see a car, seller let me do a 5 minute test drive, it was fine, bought the car (apparently it was a part exchange car, no history, seller supposedly drove it 400mi, and said it was fine). He gave me receipt saying 'sold as seen'.
Drove the car around on the same day, after it properly warmed up (about an hour drive) clutch started to judder badly, shakes, the whole front-end jumps.
Went back to seller to show the issue and ask for refund on the grounds of 'missleading advertisement /hidden fault', he refuses and claims he never knew, he said it was 'sold as seen', car was fine on test drive.
I wrote to him on the same night saying the problem got even worse, car stalls and I wont take it unless he fixes it. He said ok, first I should book diagnostics, then take it from there (I hold proof of this).
Next day after car cooled down, its fine again. After it warmed up, its bad again.
I then realised it was a scam, he must've known it, and I don't care if I test drove it or not, as car is fine when is cold, I could not foresee the issue with a quick test drive. I want refund.
He refuses.
On the next day I have official signed diagnostics from a garage saying that car needs whole new clutch assemly since it has severe judder, and many other faults, as ABS sensor, speed sensor, steering angle sensor etc. I also have a screenshot of his advertisement saying 'No Faults at all', and had 'New clutch'. I send it to him asking for refund. He refuses.
If its a private seller, the buyer has next to no rights.
However, if its a dealer, he has to take the car back in this case for a full refund.
I took a screenshot of his profile which shows all in all £65,000 worth of vehicles; cars, camper vans, boats.

Would the proof I hold be enough for a judge to decide that seller is a dealer and not private?

How long a case like this would generally take on the Small Claim Court?


I would appreciate any help and advice.

I would go down the route of letter before action, then small claims court if required.

There are various templates for this but basically you

• Factually state what has happened to date
• What you want to happen
• When you want to happen by
• What will happen if he doesnt comply.

I'd clearly mark it as LETTER BEFORE ACTION

"i bought this car from you advert (copy attached), however within 24 hours this fault (details of fault).  it is my understanding you are a motor trader and as such you have obligations with regards to repairing faults.

"i require you to (a) repair the car or (b) refund me in full"

"I expect this to be fully resolved within 14 days of receipt of this letter."

"If this isnt resolved to my satisfaction within that timeframe i will have the car repaired and pursue you through the small claims court for the cost."

I probably wouldnt give him the evidence at this stage of how you know he is a motor trader, as i think he will go to ground at that point, so make sure you've copies of all ads / all future ads.

Email him a copy if you have his email address, or send him a copy via chat.  Send him another copy via special delivery.  Send him another copy in a plain envelope with different handwriting, so you know he WILL get one of those, even if he refuses the special delivery.

dillydully

motorguy said:

dillydully said:

Went to see a car, seller let me do a 5 minute test drive, it was fine, bought the car (apparently it was a part exchange car, no history, seller supposedly drove it 400mi, and said it was fine). He gave me receipt saying 'sold as seen'.
Drove the car around on the same day, after it properly warmed up (about an hour drive) clutch started to judder badly, shakes, the whole front-end jumps.
Went back to seller to show the issue and ask for refund on the grounds of 'missleading advertisement /hidden fault', he refuses and claims he never knew, he said it was 'sold as seen', car was fine on test drive.
I wrote to him on the same night saying the problem got even worse, car stalls and I wont take it unless he fixes it. He said ok, first I should book diagnostics, then take it from there (I hold proof of this).
Next day after car cooled down, its fine again. After it warmed up, its bad again.
I then realised it was a scam, he must've known it, and I don't care if I test drove it or not, as car is fine when is cold, I could not foresee the issue with a quick test drive. I want refund.
He refuses.
On the next day I have official signed diagnostics from a garage saying that car needs whole new clutch assemly since it has severe judder, and many other faults, as ABS sensor, speed sensor, steering angle sensor etc. I also have a screenshot of his advertisement saying 'No Faults at all', and had 'New clutch'. I send it to him asking for refund. He refuses.
If its a private seller, the buyer has next to no rights.
However, if its a dealer, he has to take the car back in this case for a full refund.
I took a screenshot of his profile which shows all in all £65,000 worth of vehicles; cars, camper vans, boats.

Would the proof I hold be enough for a judge to decide that seller is a dealer and not private?

How long a case like this would generally take on the Small Claim Court?


I would appreciate any help and advice.

I would go down the route of letter before action, then small claims court if required.

There are various templates for this but basically you

• Factually state what has happened to date
• What you want to happen
• When you want to happen by
• What will happen if he doesnt comply.

I'd clearly mark it as LETTER BEFORE ACTION

"i bought this car from you advert (copy attached), however within 24 hours this fault (details of fault).  it is my understanding you are a motor trader and as such you have obligations with regards to repairing faults.

"i require you to (a) repair the car or (b) refund me in full"

"I expect this to be fully resolved within 14 days of receipt of this letter."

"If this isnt resolved to my satisfaction within that timeframe i will have the car repaired and pursue you through the small claims court for the cost."

I probably wouldnt give him the evidence at this stage of how you know he is a motor trader, as i think he will go to ground at that point, so make sure you've copies of all ads / all future ads.

Email him a copy if you have his email address, or send him a copy via chat.  Send him another copy via special delivery.  Send him another copy in a plain envelope with different handwriting, so you know he WILL get one of those, even if he refuses the special delivery.

I already did that, and he would rather go ahead with the suit.

He asked for related documents and I sent everything to him... yeah, realised it was a mistake straight away, well, 1st timer lession learnt. Although Im not sure what he could bring up anyway, even if he would delete all his ads, on the day of the sale he had 9 vehicles for sale (seen on screenshot) so he was a dealer at that point. 

DB1904

dillydully said:

motorguy said:

dillydully said:

Went to see a car, seller let me do a 5 minute test drive, it was fine, bought the car (apparently it was a part exchange car, no history, seller supposedly drove it 400mi, and said it was fine). He gave me receipt saying 'sold as seen'.
Drove the car around on the same day, after it properly warmed up (about an hour drive) clutch started to judder badly, shakes, the whole front-end jumps.
Went back to seller to show the issue and ask for refund on the grounds of 'missleading advertisement /hidden fault', he refuses and claims he never knew, he said it was 'sold as seen', car was fine on test drive.
I wrote to him on the same night saying the problem got even worse, car stalls and I wont take it unless he fixes it. He said ok, first I should book diagnostics, then take it from there (I hold proof of this).
Next day after car cooled down, its fine again. After it warmed up, its bad again.
I then realised it was a scam, he must've known it, and I don't care if I test drove it or not, as car is fine when is cold, I could not foresee the issue with a quick test drive. I want refund.
He refuses.
On the next day I have official signed diagnostics from a garage saying that car needs whole new clutch assemly since it has severe judder, and many other faults, as ABS sensor, speed sensor, steering angle sensor etc. I also have a screenshot of his advertisement saying 'No Faults at all', and had 'New clutch'. I send it to him asking for refund. He refuses.
If its a private seller, the buyer has next to no rights.
However, if its a dealer, he has to take the car back in this case for a full refund.
I took a screenshot of his profile which shows all in all £65,000 worth of vehicles; cars, camper vans, boats.

Would the proof I hold be enough for a judge to decide that seller is a dealer and not private?

How long a case like this would generally take on the Small Claim Court?


I would appreciate any help and advice.

I would go down the route of letter before action, then small claims court if required.

There are various templates for this but basically you

• Factually state what has happened to date
• What you want to happen
• When you want to happen by
• What will happen if he doesnt comply.

I'd clearly mark it as LETTER BEFORE ACTION

"i bought this car from you advert (copy attached), however within 24 hours this fault (details of fault).  it is my understanding you are a motor trader and as such you have obligations with regards to repairing faults.

"i require you to (a) repair the car or (b) refund me in full"

"I expect this to be fully resolved within 14 days of receipt of this letter."

"If this isnt resolved to my satisfaction within that timeframe i will have the car repaired and pursue you through the small claims court for the cost."

I probably wouldnt give him the evidence at this stage of how you know he is a motor trader, as i think he will go to ground at that point, so make sure you've copies of all ads / all future ads.

Email him a copy if you have his email address, or send him a copy via chat.  Send him another copy via special delivery.  Send him another copy in a plain envelope with different handwriting, so you know he WILL get one of those, even if he refuses the special delivery.

I already did that, and he would rather go ahead with the suit.

He asked for related documents and I sent everything to him... yeah, realised it was a mistake straight away, well, 1st timer lession learnt. Although Im not sure what he could bring up anyway, even if he would delete all his ads, on the day of the sale he had 9 vehicles for sale (seen on screenshot) so he was a dealer at that point. 

Check him out on Companies house. If it's a limited company no doubt he'll close it once you file your claim and your money and refund are gone. 

Herzlos

Note for anyone else watching: A dealer trying to pretend to be a private sale almost always means there's something about the car he doesn't want to deal with on a forecourt. so avoid.

If you're trying to get him to take the car back and take him to court you need to stop using it and physically return it (with evidence). If he's got a dealership, then you can dump the car back there, leave the keys along with a letter. Or if he's trading from home, just leave it on his driveway.  Make sure you update the registered keeper details and take a photo of the odometer, because you don't want him to drive it around generating tickets for you.


What's the car? What did you pay for it and what's the estimated repair bill?

dillydully

DB1904 said:

Check him out on Companies house. If it's a limited company no doubt he'll close it once you file your claim and your money and refund are gone. 

Yep, just found him, and screenshoted everything. He actually has an active 'CARS' business registered.

dillydully

Herzlos said:

Note for anyone else watching: A dealer trying to pretend to be a private sale almost always means there's something about the car he doesn't want to deal with on a forecourt. so avoid.

If you're trying to get him to take the car back and take him to court you need to stop using it and physically return it (with evidence). If he's got a dealership, then you can dump the car back there, leave the keys along with a letter. Or if he's trading from home, just leave it on his driveway.  Make sure you update the registered keeper details and take a photo of the odometer, because you don't want him to drive it around generating tickets for you.


What's the car? What did you pay for it and what's the estimated repair bill?

Im not using the car, its unusable anyway. I know his home address, on the Companies House he has a business address too. I bought the car at his home address, should I return it there I guess? He doesnt have a drive way that I could access, only outside the house public road. 'Make sure you update the registered keeper details': Im not sure what you mean here, his or my name? I think he already submitted it to my name, I have the green slip

Its not an expensive car, I payed £1700 for it, it has small body damage, usually they go for around £2000-£2300. That is still quite a lot of money to me. 

Repairing would cost around £800 area. If I file a case for a refund it could take 3 to 6 months, so at this point I am considering to get it repaired and chase him for the bill so I can have a functioning car.

DB1904

dillydully said:

DB1904 said:

Check him out on Companies house. If it's a limited company no doubt he'll close it once you file your claim and your money and refund are gone. 

Yep, just found him, and screenshoted everything. He actually has an active 'CARS' business registered.

How many companies has he closed?

dillydully

DB1904 said:

dillydully said:

DB1904 said:

Check him out on Companies house. If it's a limited company no doubt he'll close it once you file your claim and your money and refund are gone. 

Yep, just found him, and screenshoted everything. He actually has an active 'CARS' business registered.

How many companies has he closed?

As far as I can tell, he closed one. The current one is really fresh, less than a month old.