APCOA Birmingham airport hotel drop off

bargainbarrett

I start this with trepidation as some threads seem to be shot down. I have spent 2 or 3 hours reading through all the information in the FAQS and below and searched for similar threads. We were dropped off at the Ibis hotel in Birmingham airport in the lay-by outside the hotel in the dark. Didn't see the signs-they are small and unlit and we would have had to get out of the car to read them. Keeper of car received a PCN in good time etc, with photos attached. Followed advice and appealed to Ibis who came back with “Its a private road, etc”. Onto appealing to APCOA. My confusion is PoFA. This has not been quoted at all in the PCN, but there is a request for the keeper to pay the fine or give the name of the driver( I know not to do that). Is this what conforming to PoFA means?
  I have copied the template most of which doesn't appear to apply. So added “ I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. The car stopped briefly in a lay-by outside the hotel. It was dark and there were no signs explaining where one should stop so a lay-by away from the road outside the hotel is an obvious place. The signs displayed are small and unlit and not clearly displayed as stated. The car would have had to stop in order to read the signs anyway.  The car was stopped for less than a minute according to your photos.”
My questions are-is there anything to add regarding PoFA-eg you havent complied with PoFA12 conditions therefore…..
And would it be better to say that we stopped and saw the signs by which time we had stopped anyway so the passengers got out? Should I use some of this wording at this stage? http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341 About signage.
I apologise if these questions seem obvious but I am dealing with a lot of other legalese to do with a bereavement and only have so much head space.

Fruitcake

It is not a fine, it is but an invoice from an unregulated private parking company.

If APCOA want to hold a keeper liable, then not only must the NTK be received by the keeper within the timescales defined by the PoFA, they must also include the mandatory PoFA wording. 

The keeper should carefully compare the wording of the NTK with the mandatory wording of the PoFA, to see if the required wording is included.

If it is, send the appeal template in blue, unaltered, from the keeper.
If the PoFA wording is not present, send the same appeal from the keeper, but add a one liner that the NTK is non-PoFA compliant therefore APCOA cannot hold the keeper liable.

If the road where the alleged event is within the airport and covered by airport byelaws, then add another one line that the alleged event occurred on non-relevant land where byelaws apply and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.

If you are unsure, show us a redacted copy of the NTK. Leave dates showing, but remove all personal data including the PCN number.

I've dealt with the legal side of bereavement twice now, including Probate and being executor of wills, so I understand completely how it takes over your thoughts.

BrownTrout

No! none of that sorry, load of waffle, follow the appeal template , wait for the rejection and then do an appeal based on it being non pofa and airport land, thats all nothing else!!!!

bargainbarrett

“The keeper should carefully compare the wording of the NTK with the mandatory wording of the PoFA, to see if the required wording is included.” Fruitcake-do I google PoFA to find the mandatory wording. Cant find it within the forum.
Browntrout-unless I am completely off the mark, very little wording in the appeals template applies which is why i added “a load of waffle”. So are you saying that doesnt matter. Just say ‘ I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.’
The letter does state the allegation and the explanation is that it is ‘a breach of terms and conditions which are clearly displayed’. There clearly is a sign at the location-its just it was dark and too small print to read whilst driving.
Are you saying that it almost doesnt matter what you write, you just need to get the POPLA number to continue the appeal?

KeithP

The keeper should just send the blue text template unchanged.

No need for anything more at this stage.

PoPLA will sink them.

Coupon-mad

Are you saying that it almost doesnt matter what you write, you just need to get the POPLA number to continue the appeal?

Yep, you got it.  Easy peasy.  Read any APCOA thread, any at all.  You can't lose as long as you don't imply who was driving or tick any box that says 'I was the driver and...' on APCOA's appeals page.

Use the template but you could add a sentence that the notice is non-POFA so the keeper cannot be held liable.  Put that instead of the appeal template line about pay and display (which isn't relevant to you).

That might be enough to stop them at the first try.  If not, you win second go, anyway!

bargainbarrett

Thank you so much for the support given. I followed the advice and my friend got this email response from the initial appeal.
The area where your vehicle stopped is clearly designated as “No stopping at any time”. After reviewing the CCTV footage, we have found that you did in fact stop in this area. The signage at this lay-by makes it clear that this area is a red route and will allow no stopping at any time. There is a designated area behind the hotel that is available for any relevant pick up/drop offs.

As a gesture of goodwill, we have cancelled the Parking Charge Notice on this occasion.

fisherjim

As a gesture of goodwill,  we realised you were getting help from MSE forum so threw in the towel and we have cancelled the Parking Charge Notice on this occasion.

Coupon-mad

bargainbarrett said:

Thank you so much for the support given. I followed the advice and my friend got this email response from the initial appeal.
The area where your vehicle stopped is clearly designated as “No stopping at any time”. After reviewing the CCTV footage, we have found that you did in fact stop in this area. The signage at this lay-by makes it clear that this area is a red route and will allow no stopping at any time. There is a designated area behind the hotel that is available for any relevant pick up/drop offs.

As a gesture of goodwill, we have cancelled the Parking Charge Notice on this occasion.

Nice!  Good to hear.

A friend got exactly the same from APCOA this month after I wrote their first appeal about a scam (very sparsely signed and unlit) entrapment zone they are running, by turning the previous general drop off zone at Brighton station into taxis only.

Luckily, being APCOA, it's always an easy win for a keeper who doesn't say who was driving.