Should I go off-grid?

HertsLad

In March, as above, I managed to reduce my electricity bill to zero, i.e.no standing charge or usage charges with effect from Spring 2022. I have still not taken the next step of trying to wean myself off natural gas. Part of my hesitancy is due to a concern that if I am not paying my energy provider anything, why would they want to retain me as a customer.

Here's my revised thinking. What do you think? My guess is that natural gas prices will continue to increase as the Government try to persuade everyone to change over to heat pumps. I can't see it happening but gas prices will increase anyway. So maybe I should proceed with my plan to switch over from natural gas to propane and apply for a refund of the standing charge for gas. Then, to avoid the energy provider not being paid anything, start using a bit of electricity again. The standing charge for electricity and gas are similar at present. It would also allow me to use a bit of high energy electricity on occasions when I want to, like for welding equipment. So I would pay the standing charge for electicity, rather than for gas, as it's potentially more useful. Is there any flaw in my thinking?

zeupater

HertsLad said:

In March, as above, I managed to reduce my electricity bill to zero, i.e.no standing charge or usage charges with effect from Spring 2022. I have still not taken the next step of trying to wean myself off natural gas. Part of my hesitancy is due to a concern that if I am not paying my energy provider anything, why would they want to retain me as a customer.

Here's my revised thinking. What do you think? My guess is that natural gas prices will continue to increase as the Government try to persuade everyone to change over to heat pumps. I can't see it happening but gas prices will increase anyway. So maybe I should proceed with my plan to switch over from natural gas to propane and apply for a refund of the standing charge for gas. Then, to avoid the energy provider not being paid anything, start using a bit of electricity again. The standing charge for electricity and gas are similar at present. It would also allow me to use a bit of high energy electricity on occasions when I want to, like for welding equipment. So I would pay the standing charge for electicity, rather than for gas, as it's potentially more useful. Is there any flaw in my thinking?

Hi

The issue with that is the way the electricity market works, so that would need some government intervention first so that Ofgem can revert to doing their job of accountable consumer protection and sector regulation as opposed to yet another self appointed unaccountable state funded clueless environmental guardian ...

HTH - Z

Grandad2b

Pile_o_stone said:

If I were in a similar position, I'd be looking to install a wood burning cooker with a back boiler,  such as a rayburn. You sometimes can get them virtually for nothing because the owner doesn't want to pay to have them carted away. With a rayburn you get hot water for your  shower, you cook your meals and it warms the room it's located in.

The disadvantage is faffing about with chopping wood and emptying ashes, but it strikes me from the posts, that the OP wouldn't be put off by that. You can get wood from all over the place for free. A lot of owners of woods would be happy for you to remove some of the dead trees and fallen branches as they are a fire risk, especially in the hot weather. There is also a lot of scrap wood knocking about in skips too, such a broken pallets - often you'll find that local factories have loads of pallets they  are happy to get rid of for free.

Failing that, a wood burning stove with back boiler that has a flat top for cooking on.

An old post and one that may have been discussed later in the thread (and, if so, apologies) but burning old pallets can be very bad for the environment for two main reasons: firstly, the wood is often treated with toxic chemicals which are released into the atmosphere when burnt and secondly wood burning stoves are now the biggest source of PM2.5 pollution in urban and suburban areas. PM2.5 pollution is an invisible killer getting deep into lungs and even passing into the bloodstream 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56013240

zeupater

Grandad2b said:

Pile_o_stone said:

If I were in a similar position, I'd be looking to install a wood burning cooker with a back boiler,  such as a rayburn. You sometimes can get them virtually for nothing because the owner doesn't want to pay to have them carted away. With a rayburn you get hot water for your  shower, you cook your meals and it warms the room it's located in.

The disadvantage is faffing about with chopping wood and emptying ashes, but it strikes me from the posts, that the OP wouldn't be put off by that. You can get wood from all over the place for free. A lot of owners of woods would be happy for you to remove some of the dead trees and fallen branches as they are a fire risk, especially in the hot weather. There is also a lot of scrap wood knocking about in skips too, such a broken pallets - often you'll find that local factories have loads of pallets they  are happy to get rid of for free.

Failing that, a wood burning stove with back boiler that has a flat top for cooking on.

An old post and one that may have been discussed later in the thread (and, if so, apologies) but burning old pallets can be very bad for the environment for two main reasons: firstly, the wood is often treated with toxic chemicals which are released into the atmosphere when burnt and secondly wood burning stoves are now the biggest source of PM2.5 pollution in urban and suburban data related to PM2.5 areas. PM2.5 pollution is an invisible killer getting deep into lungs and even passing into the bloodstream 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56013240

Hi

Agree on the burning of pallets, however,  the linked article seems to be a prime example the BBC not seeking to provide either balance or context .... yes, health conditions such as asthma are effected by PM2.5, however there are a number of omissions which should be addressed, such as the lack of correlation in causal effect between historical PM2.5 emission levels falling by 85% since 1970 yet diagnosis of asthma rising for much of this time ... it's quite telling how the BLF source reports don't span the same period and focus on a short timeframe 2004-2012

Air Pollutants - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/emissions-of-air-pollutants/emissions-of-air-pollutants-in-the-uk-particulate-matter-pm10-and-pm25

BLF Asthma - https://statistics.blf.org.uk/asthma 

Regarding "wood burning stoves are now the biggest source of PM2.5 pollution in urban and suburban data related to PM2.5 areas" .... I've actually seen reference to this being the case a number of times, yet the 2023 national statistics report simply refers to 'Domestic Combustion' contributing ~27% of the total with the 'use of wood as a fuel accounted for 75 per cent of PM2.5 emissions from domestic combustion', importantly, the report fails to account for the difference between clean burn technology stoves producing little in the way of combustion (smoke) related PM2.5 & open fires, neither does it address bonfires etc, simply stating that 75% of the 27% (20.25%) ' come from households burning wood in closed stoves and open fires', whilst, although subject to massive decreases in use since the 1970s, coal still accounts for ~13% of the total ....

I actually find the ONS/DEFRA statistics and the BBC article to be more than slightly at odds with the 2018 DEFRA report on agricultural emissions produced by the Air Quality Expert Group, in which UK agricultural secondary inorganic PM2.5 is estimated to account for ~40% of total PM2.5 emissions .... https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/aqeg/2800829_Agricultural_emissions_vfinal2.pdf ... which suggests that one of the main thrusts of the BBC article "We know that older people are more likely to be exposed to particulates and we know that air quality is worse where poor people live" must be questionable, unless it's actually referring to older & poorer people living close to agriculture in the countryside ... oh well, that obviously directly relates to another recent BBC storyline ....

... A farmers' party has stunned Dutch politics, and is set to be the biggest party in the upper house of parliament after provincial elections. ...  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64967513 ... however, I doubt that anyone at the BBC has actually thought about the underlying causality & linked the two yet ...  

So, should we all pay more for our food & freeze in the winter to meet what is effectively an unrealistic target considering that we've already reduced PM2.5 by 85% since 1970 despite the 20.3% (67/55.7) increase in population over the same period? .... the alternatives obviously being the current UK political structure seeking to adopt & maintain a more reasonable balanced approach or we simply upset the historical British apple-cart, 'do a Netherlands' and elect a 'Farmers Party'

Cause & Effect: I'll give up my log-burner when everyone else stops eating ...

HTH-Z

HertsLad

My solar electricity system continues to work well and I am trying to make it even better. I came off grid supplied electricity in Spring 2022 and haven't gone back. I may start using some mains electricity again if and when the standing price falls.

My main battery bank is lead acid. I added some lithium batteries after watching videos on youtube. It works well to hold up the voltage overnight. I leave the lithiums and lead acid batteries connected only from 7.30pm to 8am at the present time (summer). I re-charge the lithium batteries from the lead acid bank around midday, when the sun is most powerful. 12v lead acid batteries feed an inverter for 230vac. A lead acid battery charger is then plugged into the inverter and run through a solar charge controller, to charge the lithium batteries to around 85%. This figure was read from my phone, which says it helps to extend the life of lithium batteries.

I attribute most of my success to building my own system and NOT being grid-tied.

QrizB

Congratulations HertsLad, you're an inspiration to us all!

HertsLad said:

 I don't know why they used the word 'duplicate'.

I suspect this is simply how their IT system is set up.

Some domestic electricity accounts have two separate electricity meters with separate MPANs. This can result in customers being charged a second standing charge.

Ofgem has issued guidance that only one electricity standing charge should apply per supply, and so suppliers need a mechanism to refund the second charges - the duplicates - that occasionally appear.

It seems as though the E.On customer service rep used this same mechanism to refund your standing charges, despite them not technically being a duplicate.

Qyburn

I can't find a way to search the thread, but have you looked into a wind turbine as well? There are permitted development classifications that can cover small ones. Something for when the sun isn't shining.

HertsLad

Qyburn said:

I can't find a way to search the thread, but have you looked into a wind turbine as well? There are permitted development classifications that can cover small ones. Something for when the sun isn't shining.

I bought two wind turbines on amazon bur haven't used them after viewing youtube videos which suggest they are almost a complete con and produce negligible energy in most circumstances. Apparently, they need to be turning insanely fast to produce even a fraction of the claimed power output. The first one claimed 500w output. One review said it produced 150w so I bought it on the basis that even 150w would be worth having. Now I doubt it would generate anywhere near 150w. The second one looks similar but claims 750w output. It's interesting. If I short out all 3 wires (3 phase) for the 500w turbine, there's a definite resistance to tuning the shaft, But with the 750w turbine, the resistance is far greater so if I try either turbine, it will be that one.

Instead, I shifted my interest to making my own generator and blades along the lines of other youtube videos. But it's quite expensive to buy all the copper wire and magnets so perhaps it's another red herring.

Qyburn

Lots of sailing boats use small wind turbines, these would generally be charging 12V battery banks.

QrizB

Qyburn said:

Lots of sailing boats use small wind turbines, these would generally be charging 12V battery banks.

A sailing boat on a stretch of water has much better location for wind power than the average semi.
And a small sailing boat might only have 1kWh of battery, which might only be used at weekends.