Excessive rental deposit deduction?

birdboy89

Hi all,

Having recently brought our first home (yay!) we're in the process of trying to get back at least some of our last rental deposit. Our landlady has taken a while to the point where we'd probably entirely to it all back and we did expect to lose some but she says her costs are higher than the full amount and so she wants to keep it all which appears excessive. However, as she's a friend (lesson learnt - don't mixed business and friendship!) and has been otherwise generous such as allowing us to keep the high spec white goods and some decent furniture without charge (collective second-hand value maybe £200-300 - although elsewhere we've saved her money in the garden and garage). So we don't want to blow it up too much plus we do accept some full and partial points. But we feel this is excessive and would apricate some advice as to whether I'm being naïve/over opportunistic having mostly dealt with landlords who did a lot more of the basic decorating etc rather than using professionals! We can afford to lose the deposit even if it is painful and expected to lose some (maybe 50%) but some of the points seem unfair - is it worth contesting if we'd rather not go to arbitration?

Background: 3 bed (tiny box room) semi with slightly below market rent for the area rented for 11 months with a dog. The house was freshly if cheaply professionally decorated and cleaned with a new decent quality kitchen installed (although see point 2). Specific points with the costs and my thoughts in bold.

1. Professional cleaning including carpets. £204 - ouch but we accept it as we did agree to doing and ran out of time to do it ourselves.
2. Water damage to the top of the sink cabinet doors. Unfortunately, it was not possible to simply change the strips, and the whole two doors had to be replaced, for a cost of £163.50. - While this is something we should have noticed earlier and reported once we did we believe this is down to a design/fitting flaw with a shallow sink for a standard washing up bowl leading to excess water spillage pooling on the door. Once we realised we made a point of wiping it off and leaving it open to dry. Outwardly there was little evidence of damage until the doors are opened. We accept some liability but not all as it could have been left with no loss of function and no outward damage - plus the price seems high.
3. Returning the walls and other painted areas to their original state, minus allowance for a year of wear and tear. The cleaner tried to remove the stains, but unfortunately it was not sufficient, and a single coat of paint was needed in the kitchen, living room, small bedroom, main front bedroom, and landing. The price would have been £589.20 but I have reduced it by 20% to allow for a year of wear and tear, as it is generally acknowledged that a rented house should be repainted every five years. The total for the re-painting of the rooms mentioned above is therefore £471.36. To this there is an extra £42 for the repainting of the window sill in the main front bedroom and the small bedroom. This is the main point we're unhappy about - yes there were some marks mostly with wear and tear plus a few bits maybe beyond that but essentially patches rather than a full repaint job even if that's easier to do for a wall - is it fair to ask for half or is that just how much it costs? The £42 feels excessive but there was damage from house plant pots that we should have been more careful of so we'll accept that.
4. Finally, you left both rubbish bins (normal and recycling) full, which meant that I had to pay for council tax to have them emptied it. Including a partial discount, the total is £109. We did plan on leaving the bins empty out of courtesy but what with moving that went out the window and there was no mention of bins in the contract plus while not full they also weren't empty when we moved in - also she could probably have paid someone much more cheaply for registered disposal.

• The overall cost I have incurred is therefore £989.86. As your deposit was £865.35, I am afraid I am suggesting I should retain its entirety. I am sorry if this comes as a surprise, I have done my best to keep all costs down. Suggested deduction by me £563.43? (204+(163.5*.5)+(471.36*.5)+42)
  

newsgroupmonkey_

That's what the deposit scheme is there for.

It is protected isn't it?

birdboy89

Yes it is but I'd like to avoid the need to go that far with reasoned argument  if possible.

EmmyLou30

She seems like she's being fairly reasonable in terms of acknowledging fair wear and tear for 1 year deducted off the paint job, plus if the kitchen was fairly new then the doors cost what they cost and you agree they were damaged - the fact you'd be happy closing the door and not seeing the damage isn't relevant in terms of a deduction.

I'd have more issue with the carpet cleaning costs personally - did they need cleaning? Just because a contract says you should, all that matters is are they in the same condition as at the start of the tenancy. Also I'd take issue about the bins, no-one leaves bins and recycling boxes empty when they leave a property do they?! Plus even if she was claiming empty house council tax relief between tenants she still could have put them out for collection at no cost to herself so that seems a bit off to me as she hasn't suffered any financial loss as a result of you leaving the bins full.

But as you've said she's let you have some decent white goods and furniture that add up to the same amount as the deductions she probably shouldn't have made, I'd call it quits and move on for an easy life if you still want to retain the friendship? If not, dispute it with the DPS and let them decide.     

saajan_12

birdboy89 said:

Hi all,

Having recently brought our first home (yay!) we're in the process of trying to get back at least some of our last rental deposit. Our landlady has taken a while to the point where we'd probably entirely to it all back and we did expect to lose some but she says her costs are higher than the full amount and so she wants to keep it all which appears excessive. However, as she's a friend (lesson learnt - don't mixed business and friendship!) and has been otherwise generous such as allowing us to keep the high spec white goods and some decent furniture without charge (collective second-hand value maybe £200-300 - although elsewhere we've saved her money in the garden and garage). So we don't want to blow it up too much plus we do accept some full and partial points. But we feel this is excessive and would apricate some advice as to whether I'm being naïve/over opportunistic having mostly dealt with landlords who did a lot more of the basic decorating etc rather than using professionals! We can afford to lose the deposit even if it is painful and expected to lose some (maybe 50%) but some of the points seem unfair - is it worth contesting if we'd rather not go to arbitration?

Background: 3 bed (tiny box room) semi with slightly below market rent for the area rented for 11 months with a dog. The house was freshly if cheaply professionally decorated and cleaned with a new decent quality kitchen installed (although see point 2). Specific points with the costs and my thoughts in bold.

1. Professional cleaning including carpets. £204 - ouch but we accept it as we did agree to doing and ran out of time to do it ourselves.
2. Water damage to the top of the sink cabinet doors. Unfortunately, it was not possible to simply change the strips, and the whole two doors had to be replaced, for a cost of £163.50. - While this is something we should have noticed earlier and reported once we did we believe this is down to a design/fitting flaw with a shallow sink for a standard washing up bowl leading to excess water spillage pooling on the door. Once we realised we made a point of wiping it off and leaving it open to dry. Outwardly there was little evidence of damage until the doors are opened. We accept some liability but not all as it could have been left with no loss of function and no outward damage - plus the price seems high.
3. Returning the walls and other painted areas to their original state, minus allowance for a year of wear and tear. The cleaner tried to remove the stains, but unfortunately it was not sufficient, and a single coat of paint was needed in the kitchen, living room, small bedroom, main front bedroom, and landing. The price would have been £589.20 but I have reduced it by 20% to allow for a year of wear and tear, as it is generally acknowledged that a rented house should be repainted every five years. The total for the re-painting of the rooms mentioned above is therefore £471.36. To this there is an extra £42 for the repainting of the window sill in the main front bedroom and the small bedroom. This is the main point we're unhappy about - yes there were some marks mostly with wear and tear plus a few bits maybe beyond that but essentially patches rather than a full repaint job even if that's easier to do for a wall - is it fair to ask for half or is that just how much it costs? The £42 feels excessive but there was damage from house plant pots that we should have been more careful of so we'll accept that.
4. Finally, you left both rubbish bins (normal and recycling) full, which meant that I had to pay for council tax to have them emptied it. Including a partial discount, the total is £109. We did plan on leaving the bins empty out of courtesy but what with moving that went out the window and there was no mention of bins in the contract plus while not full they also weren't empty when we moved in - also she could probably have paid someone much more cheaply for registered disposal.

• The overall cost I have incurred is therefore £989.86. As your deposit was £865.35, I am afraid I am suggesting I should retain its entirety. I am sorry if this comes as a surprise, I have done my best to keep all costs down. Suggested deduction by me £563.43? (204+(163.5*.5)+(471.36*.5)+42)
  

Going through point by point:

1. Cleaning - that's the cost of a day's cleaning, which sounds fair if you didn't do it.
   
   
2. Water damage - Are you really saying that style of sink range is not fit for purpose and <DIY shop> should stop stocking it? They sell it, people buy it, and do their washing up.
   
   You could see the depth of the sink before use or even before renting it, and not use a washing up bowl or be careful accordingly. Even if not, you can see at the point of spilling and should have been wiping it off from the outset. Even even if not, you can see it when opening the doors, which isn't a particularly invasive measure, so the damage isn't 'hidden'. Water damage can warp a door so it could eventually lose function, and regardless the LL doesn't have to receive the property and with a functional but damaged door. 100% fair you should pay the cost of materials and labour to replace the doors.
   
   
3. Painting walls - main question is whether the marks were normal wear & tear or beyond that. If there's something beyond in multiple rooms, then they have to paint multiple rooms. Its unreasonable to expect them to paint in patches, as you wouldn't end up with an even coat. Assuming depreciation at 1/5 years is pretty generous, I haven't decorated my home in 20 years and tenants are expected to treat a home as if it were their own. 
   
   
4. Bins - Point out that the bins were not emptied at the start and see if the LL will take this off. The cost itself depends on what the council charge - not unreasonable to use them. Can she provide a receipt? Getting a man&van isn't as easy, the labour / transport might be cheaper, but they usually can't actually dispose of it as business waste. 

Overall you agree to £563.43, from the differences I can't see any argument at all for the rest of the cupboard cost (81.75), so that's £645.18. For the walls, pls clarify on what is beyond W&T in which rooms. 

It sounds like the LL is offering to settle at the full deposit and not pursue the remaining £124 (confirm in writing)? Perhaps you can agree to a slightly lower settlement to avoid the deposit scheme / court? Also if you're trying to maintain relations, remember the LL will also lose rent while they spend time dealing with the issues, and could have a shorter void if you had cleaned etc during your tenancy. 

[Deleted User]

It would be for the deposit scheme to pass judgement but it does seem the landlady has tried to justify and mitigate costs.

This is not to say that all the deductions are justified but you have not helped yourself.

I meticulously cleaned my last rented property. You ran out of time. Not good. You didnt refresh the paintwork, now as such there are deductions. Maybe justified or, maybe fair wear & tear. I dont know. Failed to report a fault in a tenant like manner, standing by idly as water damage occured.

I am not saying this to have a go, but now you are paying attention when its too late. Id probably be calling it quits if LL is a friend.

birdboy89

Thank you for putting it into prospective even if I can't say I'm very happy about it!

We did try to treat things with care and have never lost any deposit over a number of moves before but apparently should have allowed a little more time to make good some aspects which was difficult for various reasons. Anyway excuses aside, it sounds like the bin is the only area where there might be a reasonable case but given even discounting that still loses the full deposit that's largely irrelevant. I still feel the level of redecorating is excessive but on balance we shall probably lump losing the deposit.

theoretica

I think also that from the point of view of a landlady things add up.  If everything but one aspect is excellent then mentally you are likely in the good and careful tenant category and a single issue doesn't seem significant.  But you seem to be suffering from having triggered the 'and another thing' response.

Chandler85

I don't get the bins issue really.  Are we saying that for the 3 weeks (for some bins around here) prior to someone moving out they should keep all their rubbish in bins bags so they can take in their car to the tip?

What if they move out on a Thursday, but bin day is Friday and they ask their neighbour to kindly bring the bins in the day after as you left them out, what if the difference is 3 days but the council just empty the bins like they normally would....  Ridiculous situation.

If the bins had just been emptied and then left full the day after that is different but to expect completely empty bins every time is a farce.

Personally, I think the whole painting thing is a bit of a farce as well, walls get scuffed and marks from bags etc, when you buy a house, there are scuffs but rented the landlord wants someone else to pay for whole rooms to be repainted continuously.

lesalanos

In regard to 4 she would have had to pay council tax anyway.  It had nothing to do with the bins