Solar panels (leased) can I install batteries?

pensionpawn

MWT said:

ProDave said:

Your best bet to maximise self usage is fit one of the solar PV diverter devices to automatically send surplus PV power to your immersion heater to heat hot water.

They are not cheap though so always do the calculations on the difference between what you would be paid for the export vs normal cost of heating the water (gas/low rate electric).

Edit as I misread and replied in the context of a battery, and not a solar divert. The solar diverts are good, I have one, however they also have an RoI. Now rates have changed out of recognition since when I installed mine 7 years ago however bear in mind that the saving is not what you divert to your immersion heater, it's what it saves you importing from the grid when the immersion heater switches on. My RoI was around 5 years.
I completely echo MWT. I have a 7.12 array split 4 east and 3.12 west. I was quoted for a Powerwall in the spring and then the price increased in October pushing the recovery cost past the warranty period (for my usage profile). Even the price cap rise in Jan is not going to change that time frame much. See what else you can do to make the most of the sun that is available. We are now shifting our demand peak to the generation peak and that is helping considerably.
The battery should be considered just a load in the house and a generator when needed and will not impact the FiT being collected by the owners of your panels.

Craglett

_Sam_ said:

We have similar situation with leased panels in the new house. To me personally the main drawback of being tied to the lease for the next 15 or so years is not being able to replace the panels for more efficient version. From doing a bit of research the current panels are either 185 or 210 watts (there are 16 of them). 

I'm thinking of the best way to squeeze the most out of what we have, getting a battery looks attractive to catch the leftover electricity when we are not at home (otherwise I'd keep the car plugged in). We would also be able to charge the battery with the EV night time low tariff if necessary, to use it then during the day.

I've checked the lease and it doesn't look like there is a restriction for as long as we don't alter the already installed system which is the property of the company, and from what I understood installing an AC coupled battery would not require an alteration? The relevant bits from the lease say:

Tenant (the company) covenants to permit the Landlord (us) to use such of the electricity generated as required for domestic use. Landlord (us) covenants not to damage or alter or remove the whole or any part of the system, and not to sell any of the generated electricity.

I've got A Shade Greener panels. I emailed to ask what could be done and they said I can't install but that "their Boffins are working on something". I asked for more details of their plans and also if I could buy out the contract. They never replied 😠 so I came here looking for others in a similar situation hoping someone had installed an ac coupled system without upsetting their contract.

_Sam_

You can't install DC coupled battery, because this would require interference with the existing ASG setup, and this is prohibited in the lease (we aren't allowed to touch their equipment.)  

But you can install AC coupled battery, as in effect it will be no different than plugging a car in to charge, or a phone for that matter! If ASG said no to AC, I think it might be a lie 

I hope to have a battery in later this year, just no spare money for it yet. I'll report when done, but really there can't be any issues.

mrklaw

aplogies for the bump, but I’m curious what people think will happen with recent changes that people are seeing from providers. Seems like many are getting letters saying if they have an export generation meter, they have to switch from deemed export to metered export. My leased setup has a generation meter so in theory would be also switched. But if we are consuming as much as possible, that income to the leaseholder will be significantly less than the deemed export (presumably the deemed export was the main goal for these guys). Especially if we fit batteries where we’d be wanting to self-consume 90-95% of the generated electricity so barely anything is exported. 

Wonder if this might eventually result in lower buyout costs? 

matt_drummer

mrklaw said:

aplogies for the bump, but I’m curious what people think will happen with recent changes that people are seeing from providers. Seems like many are getting letters saying if they have an export generation meter, they have to switch from deemed export to metered export. My leased setup has a generation meter so in theory would be also switched. But if we are consuming as much as possible, that income to the leaseholder will be significantly less than the deemed export (presumably the deemed export was the main goal for these guys). Especially if we fit batteries where we’d be wanting to self-consume 90-95% of the generated electricity so barely anything is exported. 

Wonder if this might eventually result in lower buyout costs? 

Most of their income is related to the generation amount. The deemed export payment is a minor amount compared to the generation payment.

If metered export is forced, your panel owners have no say in that, unless your contract says otherwise, it could for example say that if metered export is forced in the future that the householder may have to make up the difference.

There is also the issue of who receives the export payments, I would assume it is linked to the householder's electricity account and may have to be passed on to the panel owners.

Depending on your contract, they could have a say in whether or not you can fit batteries to their system.

I cannot for the life of me work out why anybody ever went for such a scheme, it would have been much better to borrow the money and buy your own panels, the income was guaranteed.

[Deleted User]

mrklaw said:

aplogies for the bump, but I’m curious what people think will happen with recent changes that people are seeing from providers. Seems like many are getting letters saying if they have an export generation meter, they have to switch from deemed export to metered export. My leased setup has a generation meter so in theory would be also switched. But if we are consuming as much as possible, that income to the leaseholder will be significantly less than the deemed export (presumably the deemed export was the main goal for these guys). Especially if we fit batteries where we’d be wanting to self-consume 90-95% of the generated electricity so barely anything is exported. 

Wonder if this might eventually result in lower buyout costs? 

The FIT payee signed up to this:



What does your lease contract say about electricity usage?

Grandad2b

matt_drummer said:

mrklaw said:

aplogies for the bump, but I’m curious what people think will happen with recent changes that people are seeing from providers. Seems like many are getting letters saying if they have an export generation meter, they have to switch from deemed export to metered export. My leased setup has a generation meter so in theory would be also switched. But if we are consuming as much as possible, that income to the leaseholder will be significantly less than the deemed export (presumably the deemed export was the main goal for these guys). Especially if we fit batteries where we’d be wanting to self-consume 90-95% of the generated electricity so barely anything is exported. 

Wonder if this might eventually result in lower buyout costs? 

Most of their income is related to the generation amount. The deemed export payment is a minor amount compared to the generation payment.

If metered export is forced, your panel owners have no say in that, unless your contract says otherwise, it could for example say that if metered export is forced in the future that the householder may have to make up the difference.

There is also the issue of who receives the export payments, I would assume it is linked to the householder's electricity account and may have to be passed on to the panel owners.

Depending on your contract, they could have a say in whether or not you can fit batteries to their system.

I cannot for the life of me work out why anybody ever went for such a scheme, it would have been much better to borrow the money and buy your own panels, the income was guaranteed.

The rent-a-roof companies are making their money from the feed-in-tariff; that's why they're happy to give away the electricity generated. At the time these contracts were drawn up battery storage wasn't economic enough to even consider the possibility someone might choose to install it later. 
If your contract says you can do what you like with the electricity generated then you would probably be allowed to fit an AC coupled battery. You'd then charge that up either from the grid overnight when electric is relatively cheap or from the PV system on your roof (I nearly said your PV which is the crux of the problem) and discharge it at a time to suit you.

The difference between deemed export and metered export isn't going to be huge and will barely affect the profitability of the panels on your roof. 

I was going to say that individual circumstances can mean that it's impossible for some people to borrow even when the income would be guaranteed but I don't want anyone to think I am saying this about anyone on this thread.

Hairy_Harry

Having spoken with OFGEM, & many others,     A Shade Greener, & batteries, ASG claims from OFGEM, the FIT tariff payment. The FIT tariff payment, apparently may be claimed by one of 2 schemes,    A) ASG can claim 50% of every KWH their panels produce, or   ASG can claim their export KWH back to the grid, which was under early FIT tariff's substantial.
                ASG Notifying me did I want batteries, Stating ASG boffins were working to supply batteries, register your interest.         I said YES, they replied, batteries are not allowed under my lease.  Looking at the lease, there is no such restriction, & again warning to all, look at your deeds, it shows another DEED number,  ASG have taken out a different set of deeds, stating about their lease T&C which you need to obtain.      I notified ASG I was to install a complete new PV installation, on a different roof.
I would install new A/C solar batteries.  ASG said, I must install my own inverter, & panels, which I have anyway.
             AS I UNDERSTAND THIS,  The legal tricky part, ** when you install solar batteries,  ** OFGEM rules apparently, say,
ASG is NO LONGER TO THE FIT TARIFF, It is NOT entitled to claim under FIT 50% of all it generates, MORE SO, currently the ASG export meter, sends back via a sim card, its export amount, & it is paid for that.  ALL THAT STOPS.
       Instead ASG must use the house main meter, which must only transmit, exactly what the ASG is NET exporting,
It will now be paid only by a SEG tariff, on the export recorded by the main meter,  if you have your own export, they the supplier must install a DUEL EXPORT METER, one to read yours, & the other to read the TRUE export of ASG.
      It goes on that ASG would get hardly any export, as under ASG lease, you can use all you want of theirs, & your batteries, have first call to ASG electric before ASG export.    I was also told even on SEG on the export, if forced from FIT, ASG would still receive the FIT rate for its export,  so ASG is not loosing FIT AMOUNT, but will loose, as hardly anything is being exported.
       The nail is OFGEM, want your main meter to accurately confirm ACTUAL FACTUAL ASG EXPORT, though main meter. 
 
         To define,   that is as,  I understand it, it is OFGEN rules, that dictate to ASG, & the ASG rules that ASG agreed to in order to claim from OFGEN in the first place, change of circumstances.         As put to me, once you tell ASG or you tell OFGEN direct, you have installed batteries,  ASG HAVE TO INSTANTLY TO NOTIFY OFGEN,  OR IT IS FRAUD as ASG are claiming still, claiming, back,  now no longer entitled to,  monies for the Fit tariff.    It may be that ASG get repaid very little or nil, but the ASG lease states, we can use all we want.      Check your lease,  In mine, there is nothing about we cannot use batteries, & then define that, IF it did say you could not connect batteries,  then could not charge a VAPE, laptop, car, mobile phone etc, etc, all have batteries.      It may be then that ASG just want to sell you their system. If you want to buy it.   The key thing is look at your TWO SETS OF HOUSE DEEDS, your main one, & the ASG added one which is mentioned in the house deeds, which will give the other deed number, & that is your small print.   THAT YOU MUST CHECK

Could someone please comment on this, & try & clarify it.

               

[Deleted User]

Hairy_Harry said:

Having spoken with OFGEM, & many others,     A Shade Greener, & batteries, ASG claims from OFGEM, the FIT tariff payment. The FIT tariff payment, apparently may be claimed by one of 2 schemes,    A) ASG can claim 50% of every KWH their panels produce, or   ASG can claim their export KWH back to the grid, which was under early FIT tariff's substantial.
                ASG Notifying me did I want batteries, Stating ASG boffins were working to supply batteries, register your interest.         I said YES, they replied, batteries are not allowed under my lease.  Looking at the lease, there is no such restriction, & again warning to all, look at your deeds, it shows another DEED number,  ASG have taken out a different set of deeds, stating about their lease T&C which you need to obtain.      I notified ASG I was to install a complete new PV installation, on a different roof.
I would install new A/C solar batteries.  ASG said, I must install my own inverter, & panels, which I have anyway.
             AS I UNDERSTAND THIS,  The legal tricky part, ** when you install solar batteries,  ** OFGEM rules apparently, say,
ASG is NO LONGER TO THE FIT TARIFF, It is NOT entitled to claim under FIT 50% of all it generates, MORE SO, currently the ASG export meter, sends back via a sim card, its export amount, & it is paid for that.  ALL THAT STOPS.
       Instead ASG must use the house main meter, which must only transmit, exactly what the ASG is NET exporting,
It will now be paid only by a SEG tariff, on the export recorded by the main meter,  if you have your own export, they the supplier must install a DUEL EXPORT METER, one to read yours, & the other to read the TRUE export of ASG.
      It goes on that ASG would get hardly any export, as under ASG lease, you can use all you want of theirs, & your batteries, have first call to ASG electric before ASG export.    I was also told even on SEG on the export, if forced from FIT, ASG would still receive the FIT rate for its export,  so ASG is not loosing FIT AMOUNT, but will loose, as hardly anything is being exported.
       The nail is OFGEM, want your main meter to accurately confirm ACTUAL FACTUAL ASG EXPORT, though main meter. 
 
         To define,   that is as,  I understand it, it is OFGEN rules, that dictate to ASG, & the ASG rules that ASG agreed to in order to claim from OFGEN in the first place, change of circumstances.         As put to me, once you tell ASG or you tell OFGEN direct, you have installed batteries,  ASG HAVE TO INSTANTLY TO NOTIFY OFGEN,  OR IT IS FRAUD as ASG are claiming still, claiming, back,  now no longer entitled to,  monies for the Fit tariff.    It may be that ASG get repaid very little or nil, but the ASG lease states, we can use all we want.      Check your lease,  In mine, there is nothing about we cannot use batteries, & then define that, IF it did say you could not connect batteries,  then could not charge a VAPE, laptop, car, mobile phone etc, etc, all have batteries.      It may be then that ASG just want to sell you their system. If you want to buy it.   The key thing is look at your TWO SETS OF HOUSE DEEDS, your main one, & the ASG added one which is mentioned in the house deeds, which will give the other deed number, & that is your small print.   THAT YOU MUST CHECK

Could someone please comment on this, & try & clarify it.

               

It would help if set out your post in a clearer way. That said, no one can or should offer you legal advice on a matter that could end up in Court.

What I would say is this. The feed in tariff scheme comprises of 2 elements: one, a payment for every kWh of solar electricity generated and, two, a deemed payment of 50% of the generation in lieu of actual export payments. Under a ‘rent a roof’ scheme, these payments will have been assigned to a third-party. The homeowner gets to use all the electricity that the roof can generate.

Deemed export payments can be forgone in favour of payments under the Special Export Guarantee (SEG) scheme. The FIT payment for generation is retained. SEG requires a smart meter which records actual exported energy: in other words, it is a smart export meter.

A homeowner who owns an existing solar array that generates FIT payments CAN fit a battery downstream of the solar generation meter WITHOUT the need to inform Ofgem as the battery does not impact in anyway FIT payments now or in the future. Fitting a battery between the solar inverter and the generation meter - particularly, if the battery can import grid electricity - may well  be seen as a FIT scheme default as all electricity exported by the battery would pass through the generation meter. This, in turn, would lead to higher FIT payments which is a breach of the FIT agreement, the array can be removed from the FIT scheme.

As far as SEG is concerned, some suppliers such as Scottish Power will not accept brown energy from a battery. This is energy imported from the Grid into the battery but exported via the smart meter.

As far as the legal side is concerned, you need to speak to a solicitor. 

FWiW, the Government has an ongoing consultation on VAT. It is looking likely that batteries will be zero rated sometime in the future. Now is not a good time to fit a battery.

Xbigman

I knew someone who leased their roof but they only had 8 panels installed. When they enquired of an installer if they could add more panels of their own the installer said they don't touch leased roof schemes without written permission because the leasing company usually retain ownership of the equipment and altering someone else's equipment without express permission was extremely dodgy. The installer's also pointed out that unauthorised alterations could well invalidate his house insurance.

Alterations without permission just seem a really bad idea. If it will cost the leasing company money they aren't going to agree, are they?


Darren