Old GPP – Protected rights appear to be a state secret.

sandsy

This doesn't sound like a GPP. It sounds like it's a small occupational DC scheme where the trustees outsourced all the admin, investment etc by purchasing insurance policies, i.e. insured scheme. Effectively the trustees are the policyholders although individual members may be named beneficiaries. 

Found the following which describes the workings a bit more: https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/pig/2-8

xylophone

I believe that my bro's scheme is a GPP. and he has his own policy number. The employer chose the provider. Indeed, the employer chose to start a new scheme with a different provider in 2001 for all new contributions. The values accrued for each employee in 2001 were transferred to the new group pension provider under this separate GPP arrangement. Bro therefore has two separate policy numbers with Aviva. One relating to the GPP policy up to 2001 and the other for contributions from 2001 onward. The latter appears to be a straightforward PP.

I don't know whether this is relevant but stakeholder pensions became available from 6 April 2001.

I am now a little confused. Does your brother have pension A and pension B or was pension A transferred into pension B?

https://www.pruadviser.co.uk/knowledge-literature/knowledge-library/legal-structure/ may be of interest concerning the nature of the scheme(s).

Something that does occur to me concerning all this palaver - your brother can't be the only employee or ex employee who has reached the age of taking benefits from the scheme(s) ?

"I’m fairly sure you have to tell Aviva that you want the rights assigning to you and then a form is sent out to out to us that has to be signed by the scheme trustee."

Fairly sure!!!

How sloppy! Why hasn't he or she taken the trouble to find out?

DairyQueen

xylophone said:

I believe that my bro's scheme is a GPP. and he has his own policy number. The employer chose the provider. Indeed, the employer chose to start a new scheme with a different provider in 2001 for all new contributions. The values accrued for each employee in 2001 were transferred to the new group pension provider under this separate GPP arrangement. Bro therefore has two separate policy numbers with Aviva. One relating to the GPP policy up to 2001 and the other for contributions from 2001 onward. The latter appears to be a straightforward PP.

I don't know whether this is relevant but stakeholder pensions became available from 6 April 2001.

I am now a little confused. Does your brother have pension A and pension B or was pension A transferred into pension B?

https://www.pruadviser.co.uk/knowledge-literature/knowledge-library/legal-structure/ may be of interest concerning the nature of the scheme(s).

Something that does occur to me concerning all this palaver - your brother can't be the only employee or ex employee who has reached the age of taking benefits from the scheme(s) ?

"I’m fairly sure you have to tell Aviva that you want the rights assigning to you and then a form is sent out to out to us that has to be signed by the scheme trustee."

Fairly sure!!!

How sloppy! Why hasn't he or she taken the trouble to find out?

Thankyou sandsy and xylophone for the links.

Bro's former employer started scheme A in 1988 but with contributions backdated to 1987. As sandsy suggested, it may be an occupational DC or, possibly, a GPP.  According to the (yes, very sloppy) employer representative the scheme has trustees. Aviva also mentioned trustees.

In 1997 contracting-out into scheme A ceased. 

In 2001 scheme A was closed to new contributions and the scheme transferred to Axa Sun Life, then Friends Life, then Aviva.

Scheme B was setup by the employer with Friends Life in 2001 and received all contributions going forward. Aviva took over Friends Life in 2015.

Bro now has the following policies with Aviva:

- Policy A (all benefits accrued from Scheme A). Two valuations are provided under this policy: V1 and V2. V1 is given as a total and then (on the back of the valuation) is broken down between 'protected rights' and 'non-protected rights'. V2 is the AVC component. It's an additional amount to V1. It has a separate valuation sheet but has the same policy number.
- Policy B (all benefits accrued from Scheme B ). This seems to be a straightforward DC.

Bro and I will be calling Aviva this week. I just hope that I ask the right questions as Policy A represents a sizeable chunk of bro's DC pot.

xylophone

As a matter of interest, is your brother still in contact with any of his  former colleagues of similar age or older?

They might be able to throw some light on the matter.

Have you asked for a copy of the Trust Deed and Scheme Rules?

DairyQueen

xylophone said:

As a matter of interest, is your brother still in contact with any of his  former colleagues of similar age or older?

They might be able to throw some light on the matter.

Have you asked for a copy of the Trust Deed and Scheme Rules?

Bro is marginally in contact with a couple of people who still work for the company. They provided the contact info. for Ms Sloppy. Unfortunately, they are equally clueless about the scheme. No contact with any retirees.

Three weeks ago I compiled an email for bro to send to Ms Sloppy. We have requested a whole laundry list of information including the Scheme Rules. No reply until chased last week, Ms Sloppy's response:

"I did forward your initial enquiry to my Financial Director, I will email him again today.

I’m fairly sure you have to tell Aviva that you want the rights assigning to you and then a form is sent out to out to us that has to be signed by the scheme trustee. I’m surprised that we have heard from Aviva.

It may be in the best interest to contact Aviva again, and in the meantime if I hear anything from Aviva I will let you know."

Which is about as helpful as a chocolate teapot.

I am trying to consolidate bro's numerous bits of DC pension into a single SIPP, but I will not suggest transferring any policies with advantageous legacy benefits.Tracking the policies has been the first hurdle. Investigating the benefits is proving to be even more challenging. 

I need to know whether Policy A's excess TFC is worth retaining in order to discuss (with bro) whether it should be transferred. This policy is the core of his DC provision and will provide a very necessary top-up to his SP and small DB.

I think (but would appreciate your opinion) that I should request a retirement pack from Aviva. Sheme A NRA is 65 and bro will be 65 in 5 months. Will this provide information/illustration/valuation about any excess TFC? 

Should Aviva provide the Scheme Rules if requested?

I should mention that bro has no intention of retiring until age 68. There is no plan to access this pot (inc TFC) for another 3 years. He also intends to defer SP.

Bro has several old plans from different periods of employment. Most are small amounts but they are a hodge-podge of types and complex, legacy rules. I have a feeling that I will be seeking more help on the forum as I wade through the treacle.

Bro's situation has brought home just how difficult life is for those with moderate pots under the new pension freedoms. My bro has (literally) filed or thrown unread every scrap of correspondence he has received over the last five decades as he understands zero about investments and pensions. The correspondence may as well be written in a foreign language.

I think the total pot will be around £130k. Too small to justify paying for professional advice and management.

Your help is much appreciated.

xylophone

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78331478/#Comment_78331478

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78377177/#Comment_78377177

Did you see the above?

Might it be an idea for your brother to make the SAR?

Should Aviva provide the Scheme Rules if requested?

It appears that Scheme A is a trust based scheme where the Trustees outsourced the administration to an insurance company/its successors.

It would seem to me unlikely that in these circumstances, a copy of the Trust Deed and Scheme Rules was not supplied to the insurer.

Your brother is a member of the Scheme - it seems to me has a right to the information so that Aviva as administrator should supply it.

It also seems to me that it would be worthwhile to obtain a retirement pack from Aviva - at least it should clear up the question of whether or not there is a protected tax free lump sum.

With regard to the protected PCLS, see

https://techzone.abrdn.com/public/pensions/Tech-guide-scheme-specific-tfc

If there is indeed a protected PCLS, this could bring its own problems .....see

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6026867/section-32-pension-about-to-close-what-to-do/p1

where a S32 was involved.

Keep us updated!

DairyQueen

Update for others' in a similar situation.

On 14 Feb we (bro and I) called Aviva again and requested a retirement pack and the scheme rules. These were promised in "anything up to 3 weeks". 08 April and still nothing. Called Aviva again to chase.

This time we were lucky that a knowledgeable and helpful customer rep. picked-up. She advised that the issue lay with the assignment of the policy to the pension trustee (here we go again). Aviva had contacted them but received no response. She also stated that Aviva should have chased and the delay was unacceptable.

She has escalated the status to 'urgent issue' (3 day response). We now anticipate receiving forms to have the policy assigned to bro. This will remove the obstacle of the utterly derelict former employer and hopefully avoid escalation of the issue to the pensions ombudsman.

I am not holding my breath.

Bro reaches the policy NRD in a little over 2 months. He has no intention of accessing the pension. Just as well given the current situation.

xylophone

On 14 Feb we (bro and I) called Aviva again and requested a retirement pack and the scheme rules. These were promised in "anything up to 3 weeks". 08 April and still nothing. 

No rival to Speedy Gonzalez then....

In an earlier post, you were discussing the assignment of the pension policy.

I recently came across this

https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/gpt/6-10

6.10 Assignment of a policy

Some money purchase schemes are established as a trust which holds policies in the names of members. This will often allow the member the option of having the policy assigned to him or her. The assignment of a policy in this way is, in effect, a transfer of rights between registered pension schemes in respect of the same member. The policy is treated as registered in the same way as a deferred annuity policy.

Note that an assignment of the policy or its benefits to anything other than a registered pension scheme would be an unauthorised payment.

i wonder does this mean that the policy will need to be assigned to eg a SIPP in your brother's name or even to Scheme B?

DairyQueen

I thought I would update this thread as my brother has finally, FINALLY received the information that he requested 14 months ago from Aviva regarding his legacy occupational pension. It has taken dozens of phone calls and hours of our time to reach this stage. My bro reached scheme retirement age last June (5 months after our initial enquiry and 9 months before the information was provided).

It took us until September to establish basic facts from Aviva, have them send us the correct forms to complete, track down and contact the trustees, have the trustees complete their parts of the forms and return them to Aviva, It then took Aviva a further 6 months to calculate and provide the protected tax free amount.


This is the text of Aviva's response:
"5 April 2006 Tax-Free Lump Sum Summary

Basis of Calculation

Your tax-free lump sum entitlement at 5 April 2006 has been calculated based on a combination of the

information provided:

❑ on the A-Day Tax-Free Lump Sum Protection Questionnaire (if this has been completed)

❑ from our records

❑ by a Financial Adviser or another 3rd party

The value of this policy on 5 April 2006 was £56808. This included an amount of £25886 in respect of former Protected Rights contributions (former PRC) and £3958 in respect of additional voluntary contributions (AVC).

5 April 2006 Tax-Free Lump Sum Entitlement

The tax-free lump sum entitlement under this scheme at 5 April 2006 was £26964.

As this was greater than 25% of your retirement fund at that date, this amount is protected.

The actual tax-free lump sum amount ultimately payable on your retirement will depend on the then

current legislation, your final retirement fund and your available Standard Lifetime Allowance.

The actual retirement fund will be determined in accordance with the policy booklet.

A transfer out of this arrangement may result in this protected tax-free lump sum being lost. Further

details can be provided on request."

Could any kind person please answer the following questions:

- Is there an algorithm that I can use to calculate how much of the policy's current value should be tax free? For example, would it remain the same percentage of the policy value as on 'A Day' (in 2006) ?
Or
- Is it fixed at the value at 'A' Day
Or
- Something else?

We are no further forward in knowing how much tax free cash bro is currently entitled to.

Also, the policy has dropped in value (as have annuity rates) whilst bro has been waiting for a truly incredible amount of time  for the administrators and trustees to provide basic information about his pension benefits.

Will bro have any basis for compensation?

Many thanks. 

xylophone

Hello again!

I wonder is this thread of interest?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6431377/protected-tax-free-cash/p1