Old GPP – Protected rights appear to be a state secret.

DairyQueen

Is anyone able to answer the following please?

 I am going around in circles in futile attempts to help my sibling.

 My sib. is a deferred member of an old GPP. It has been sold several times over the decades. The administrator is now Aviva. It has a NRA of 65 and sib. is 65 in a few months.

 It has protected and non-protected rights plus an AVC component.

 The policy hasn’t been assigned to sib. so Aviva are refusing to provide information about the protected rights. They referred him to his former employer as this info. ‘must be provided by the pension trustees’, but the company has been taken over and the new parent company is responsible for liaising with the pension trustees. However, the parent company has referred us back to Aviva with a recommendation that relative requests that the policy is self-assigned. Company has not provided any of the requested info, nor put sib. in contact with the trustees, nor referred his enquiry.

1)    Is relative able to have the policy assigned?

2)    If so, will Aviva have to reveal information directly to him about the protected rights?

3)    If the policy is assigned could sib. lose any benefits, especially protected rights?

4)    Must the employer (the parent company) provide the info. we seek? Or must they refer to the trustee? 

5)    Can we complain to the Pensions Ombudsman if they/trustee fail to respond?

Aviva are extremely tight-lipped about the policy benefits. They will only respond ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to questions. We have to know the correct questions to ask but we don’t have the scheme rules. This was exactly the kind of treatment that OH received from Aviva when researching his S32 buy-out.

Initially Aviva denied the existence of the protected rights. We have the latest and historic valuations and each refers to ‘protected rights’ as almost half of the policy value. The latest valuation is annotated that the protected rights are related to contracting-out. Old correspondence confirms that the scheme accepted relative’s contracted-out contributions until 1997.

The only information extracted (painfully) from Aviva is that the policy includes a tax free cash sum that could exceed 25%. The percentage ‘could be anything between 25-100%’ but, guess what?, only the pension trustees can provide the magic number.

Our next step is to try Aviva again but, before we do, I would be very grateful if anyone could shed light on the nature of this kind of scheme and who is responsible for providing information on its benefits.

TIA

hyubh

The concept of protected rights in law was abolished in 2012. Before then, it denoted that part of a money purchase pension you were restricted in what you could do with compared to the rest, since it corresponded to the SERPS you had ultimately forgone by contracting out in the first place.

dunstonh

 It has protected and non-protected rights plus an AVC component.

Not any more.   Protected rights were converted to non-protected rights a decade ago.  Some providers amalgamated them but those plans on old software often just changed the name to former protected rights.

1)    Is relative able to have the policy assigned?

No. You cannot assign a pension.  Although I add the caveat that you may be using that word when you mean something else. 

2)    If so, will Aviva have to reveal information directly to him about the protected rights?

Aviva will disclose factual information to the policyholder, their adviser or anyone that the policyholder has given permission to have info.

3)    If the policy is assigned could sib. lose any benefits, especially protected rights?

As you cannot assign a pension, that is not applicable. 

4)    Must the employer (the parent company) provide the info. we seek? Or must they refer to the trustee? 

It's unlikely the employer would have a clue about it.   The trustees are unlikely to either but the administrator for the scheme should.  That may or may not be Aviva as some GPPs are administered by the insurance company and some by a third party administrator.

5)    Can we complain to the Pensions Ombudsman if they/trustee fail to respond?

Complain about what?   At this stage, it appears more of a misunderstanding and an attempt to get information without appropriate permission.

Aviva are extremely tight-lipped about the policy benefits. They will only respond ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to questions.

That is to be expected. They are the provider.  Not an adviser.  They cannot get into areas of advice, opinion or suitability.  So, what you consider tight lipped is really a case of you asking the wrong people.

Initially Aviva denied the existence of the protected rights.

And they are correct. There isn't any.,

The only information extracted (painfully) from Aviva is that the policy includes a tax free cash sum that could exceed 25%. The percentage ‘could be anything between 25-100%’ but, guess what?, only the pension trustees can provide the magic number.

Also correct, although its the administrators rather than the trustees that tend to deal with that.  On pre 2006 plans, the possibility for greater than 25% tax free cash exists and the provider will not necessarily hold the information available to say what it is without further information being obtained.

 -kept the answers short to avoid the post getting too long.  

DairyQueen

Thank you for your replies but now I'm completely confused.

Aviva has mentioned no other administrator. They produce the annual valuations. How do we find out the identity of the administrators if not Aviva? According to Aviva the pension trustee must provide the TFC info. According to the employer this info. is available from Aviva.

Round and round we go.

Btw we did not ask Aviva for advice; we are simply seeking information. Simple questions like: "what is the %age TFC on the policy?" should not require IFA status to solicit an answer. 

"the possibility for greater than 25% tax free cash exists and the provider will not necessarily hold the information available to say what it is without further information being obtained."

What further information? and from whom? And who is responsible for providing this info to the poor schmuk who is just trying to plan his retirement?

Sorry about my frustration but some companies make an already difficult situation into a complex mountain of complexity and confusion.

Marcon

DairyQueen said:

Thank you for your replies but now I'm completely confused.

Aviva has mentioned no other administrator. They produce the annual valuations. How do we find out the identity of the administrators if not Aviva? According to Aviva the pension trustee must provide the TFC info. According to the employer this info. is available from Aviva.

Round and round we go.

Btw we did not ask Aviva for advice; we are simply seeking information. Simple questions like: "what is the %age TFC on the policy?" should not require IFA status to solicit an answer. 

"the possibility for greater than 25% tax free cash exists and the provider will not necessarily hold the information available to say what it is without further information being obtained."

What further information? and from whom? And who is responsible for providing this info to the poor schmuk who is just trying to plan his retirement?

Sorry about my frustration but some companies make an already difficult situation into a complex mountain of complexity and confusion.

If this is a GPP (Group Personal Pension), there won't be any trustees if it's a contract based scheme - and that's what I'd expect it to be. Any idea what the actual full name of the scheme is?

The 'further information' is normally down to the individual (it's a record of earnings, needed to establish whether or not tax free cash can exceed the usual 25%).

dunstonh said:

1)    Is relative able to have the policy assigned?

No. You cannot assign a pension.  Although I add the caveat that you may be using that word when you mean something else. 

If this was a trust-based ] occupational defined contribution scheme that has been wound up, then it would be normal to have individual policies assigned to each member, rather than having the benefits collectively held by trustees. 

Rather than driving yourselves nuts, why not suggest your sibling contacts https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems for some free, expert and impartial help to wade through the mire?

xylophone

Has your brother obtained a State Pension Forecast?

Is a COPE shown?


You might find this of interest.

https://techzone.abrdn.com/public/pensions/Tech-guide-scheme-specific-tfc

https://www.aegon.co.uk/support/faq/Understanding-our-products/retirement-products/pension-contributions/What-is-non-protected-rights-npr-protected-rights-prp.html

As I understood it, a Group Personal Pension was an arrangement whereby an employer chose a pension provider for his employees but each employee had his own individual policy with the provider - if this is the case, I am at a loss to understand why basic information about the policy and its benefits cannot be provided to your brother.

Is it Aviva that has been providing annual statements?

I wonder is there anything here that might throw some light on your brother's scheme contact?

https://www.aviva.co.uk/business/contact-us/workplace-pensions/

Marcon

Forgot to say - your sib can obtain a record of earnings to help in the calculation of tax free cash by making a SAR. Link: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hmrc-subject-access-request

DairyQueen

Marcon said:

DairyQueen said:

Thank you for your replies but now I'm completely confused.

Aviva has mentioned no other administrator. They produce the annual valuations. How do we find out the identity of the administrators if not Aviva? According to Aviva the pension trustee must provide the TFC info. According to the employer this info. is available from Aviva.

Round and round we go.

Btw we did not ask Aviva for advice; we are simply seeking information. Simple questions like: "what is the %age TFC on the policy?" should not require IFA status to solicit an answer. 

"the possibility for greater than 25% tax free cash exists and the provider will not necessarily hold the information available to say what it is without further information being obtained."

What further information? and from whom? And who is responsible for providing this info to the poor schmuk who is just trying to plan his retirement?

Sorry about my frustration but some companies make an already difficult situation into a complex mountain of complexity and confusion.

If this is a GPP (Group Personal Pension), there won't be any trustees if it's a contract based scheme - and that's what I'd expect it to be. Any idea what the actual full name of the scheme is?

The 'further information' is normally down to the individual (it's a record of earnings, needed to establish whether or not tax free cash can exceed the usual 25%).

dunstonh said:

1)    Is relative able to have the policy assigned?

No. You cannot assign a pension.  Although I add the caveat that you may be using that word when you mean something else. 

If this was a trust-based ] occupational defined contribution scheme that has been wound up, then it would be normal to have individual policies assigned to each member, rather than having the benefits collectively held by trustees. 

Rather than driving yourselves nuts, why not suggest your sibling contacts https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems for some free, expert and impartial help to wade through the mire?

Thank you for your reply.

AFAIK the scheme has not been wound-up. The original GPP was closed to new contributions in 2001 and the employees' benefits transferred to a new provider (AXA/Sun Life then Friends Life, now Aviva).

I know the name of the scheme but it includes the name of the former (small) employer. If I publish here it would most likely reveal the identity of my sib. Redacted: "<employer company name> (1987) Pension Scheme".

According to Aviva there are trustees. The parent company has neither confirmed/denied the existence of trustees.

The parent company advised that sib. should have the policy self-assigned. I quote from an email received today:

"I’m fairly sure you have to tell Aviva that you want the rights assigning to you and then a form is sent out to out to us that has to be signed by the scheme trustee."

Thank you for the link to Money Helper. This is a new site to me.

DairyQueen

xylophone said:

Has your brother obtained a State Pension Forecast?

Is a COPE shown?


You might find this of interest.

https://techzone.abrdn.com/public/pensions/Tech-guide-scheme-specific-tfc

https://www.aegon.co.uk/support/faq/Understanding-our-products/retirement-products/pension-contributions/What-is-non-protected-rights-npr-protected-rights-prp.html

As I understood it, a Group Personal Pension was an arrangement whereby an employer chose a pension provider for his employees but each employee had his own individual policy with the provider - if this is the case, I am at a loss to understand why basic information about the policy and its benefits cannot be provided to your brother.

Is it Aviva that has been providing annual statements?

I wonder is there anything here that might throw some light on your brother's scheme contact?

https://www.aviva.co.uk/business/contact-us/workplace-pensions/

Thankyou very much for the helpful links. It seems that calculating the TFC is a complicated business.

Aviva has been providing annual statements since it took over from Friends Life in 2015.

I believe that my bro's scheme is a GPP. and he has his own policy number. The employer chose the provider. Indeed, the employer chose to start a new scheme with a different provider in 2001 for all new contributions. The values accrued for each employee in 2001 were transferred to the new group pension provider under this separate GPP arrangement. Bro therefore has two separate policy numbers with Aviva. One relating to the GPP policy up to 2001 and the other for contributions from 2001 onward. The latter appears to be a straightforward PP.

Bro has a SP pension forecast. He has COPE but his contracted-in contributions were sufficient for his basic+ S2P to exceed the 2016 full nSP and thus receive protection. His SP is currently £183.00 and change.

Marcon

DairyQueen said:

Marcon said:

DairyQueen said:

Thank you for your replies but now I'm completely confused.

Aviva has mentioned no other administrator. They produce the annual valuations. How do we find out the identity of the administrators if not Aviva? According to Aviva the pension trustee must provide the TFC info. According to the employer this info. is available from Aviva.

Round and round we go.

Btw we did not ask Aviva for advice; we are simply seeking information. Simple questions like: "what is the %age TFC on the policy?" should not require IFA status to solicit an answer. 

"the possibility for greater than 25% tax free cash exists and the provider will not necessarily hold the information available to say what it is without further information being obtained."

What further information? and from whom? And who is responsible for providing this info to the poor schmuk who is just trying to plan his retirement?

Sorry about my frustration but some companies make an already difficult situation into a complex mountain of complexity and confusion.

If this is a GPP (Group Personal Pension), there won't be any trustees if it's a contract based scheme - and that's what I'd expect it to be. Any idea what the actual full name of the scheme is?

The 'further information' is normally down to the individual (it's a record of earnings, needed to establish whether or not tax free cash can exceed the usual 25%).

dunstonh said:

1)    Is relative able to have the policy assigned?

No. You cannot assign a pension.  Although I add the caveat that you may be using that word when you mean something else. 

If this was a trust-based ] occupational defined contribution scheme that has been wound up, then it would be normal to have individual policies assigned to each member, rather than having the benefits collectively held by trustees. 

Rather than driving yourselves nuts, why not suggest your sibling contacts https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/pensions-and-retirement/pension-problems for some free, expert and impartial help to wade through the mire?

Thank you for your reply.

AFAIK the scheme has not been wound-up. The original GPP was closed to new contributions in 2001 and the employees' benefits transferred to a new provider (AXA/Sun Life then Friends Life, now Aviva).

I know the name of the scheme but it includes the name of the former (small) employer. If I publish here it would most likely reveal the identity of my sib. Redacted: "<employer company name> (1987) Pension Scheme".

According to Aviva there are trustees. The parent company has neither confirmed/denied the existence of trustees.

The parent company advised that sib. should have the policy self-assigned. I quote from an email received today:

"I’m fairly sure you have to tell Aviva that you want the rights assigning to you and then a form is sent out to out to us that has to be signed by the scheme trustee."

Thank you for the link to Money Helper. This is a new site to me.

If it was set up in 1987, it can't have been set up as a group personal pension, because personal pensions didn't come into existence until 1988. I'm warming to the idea that this was a company DC scheme which then morphed into a GPP, with policies being assigned to individual members.

DairyQueen

Marcon said:

If it was set up in 1987, it can't have been set up as a group personal pension, because personal pensions didn't come into existence until 1988. I'm warming to the idea that this was a company DC scheme which then morphed into a GPP, with policies being assigned to individual members.

Interestingly, I have discovered correspondence that suggests it was created in 1988 and contributions were back-dated to 1987. This would suggest that it may have been a GPP from inception.

Either way, it's devilishly difficult to find out any information. We will be knocking on Aviva's door again next week and will formally request a statement of retirement options - inc TFC. Presumably, they will have to provide this in advance of his NRA.