Restrictive Covenant 20 year rule

Marvel123

eddddy said:

Marvel123 said:

the deeds don't specifically state I have to park in the garden, and I am just after clarification I am interpreting them correctly ( as stated in original post ) and that I'm in my right to park in the shared communal spaces 

The extract from the Deed that you've posted doesn't mention "communal spaces".

It only mentions 2 types of parking spaces - "private parking spaces" and "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

Are you talking about a 3rd type of parking space called "communal spaces", or do you mean the "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces"?

The deed seems to be very clear about the rules for "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

apologies if my wording has been misleading , I have been referring to the public and private soaces as communal

-the estate  has 100 properties,
-20 have purpose built parking spaces on the front driveway of their garden , 
-5 have a rectangle space marked in the back garden on deeds as a "carport optional" 
- there are 75 spaces in the parking areas marked ( with house numbers and contain seperate titles ) for the remaining properties 
- there are 20  additional spaces in the parking areas , these are marked as a mixture of "private spaces"  and "private spaces" both on the ground and in the conveyance plan drawing within the deeds
- it is these public and private spaces used by visitors, people with 2nd cars and myself 

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

Section62

Marvel123 said:

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

You really need to speak to a solicitor to get the correct answer to all the questions except the BiB.  What you can and can't do will depend on the exact wording of the covenants, including the definitions of all the terms used (e.g. "public spaces").  Given the limited information you can share on a public forum any answers we can give would just be guesses.

The BiB is the easy one - unless there is something in the deeds which says you must own a car and park it in that area, you don't have to.  It isn't very common for people to be required to own a car, let alone keep it parked in a specific location all the time.

Therefore it is very unlikely you are obliged to park a car within the designated area - the issue is whether or not you are allowed to park a car elsewhere within the 'estate'. If you opt not to own a car I don't think it likely the management company can do anything about it.

ProDave

I am still trying to find the bit that mentions a "20 year rule"

Marvel123

Section62 said:

Marvel123 said:

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

You really need to speak to a solicitor to get the correct answer to all the questions except the BiB.  What you can and can't do will depend on the exact wording of the covenants, including the definitions of all the terms used (e.g. "public spaces").  Given the limited information you can share on a public forum any answers we can give would just be guesses.

The BiB is the easy one - unless there is something in the deeds which says you must own a car and park it in that area, you don't have to.  It isn't very common for people to be required to own a car, let alone keep it parked in a specific location all the time.

Therefore it is very unlikely you are obliged to park a car within the designated area - the issue is whether or not you are allowed to park a car elsewhere within the 'estate'. If you opt not to own a car I don't think it likely the management company can do anything about it.

thank you for the above

maybe further investigation with a solicitor is required and on hindsight we should have investigation on purchase of property

Marvel123

ProDave said:

I am still trying to find the bit that mentions a "20 year rule"

Google search states

Generally, it is difficult to enforce a breach of covenant after 20 years. The Limitation Act 1980 also states that claims in land should be brought within 12 years.  However, the time starts to run from when the breach occurs, not the date of the deed.

Section62

Marvel123 said:

ProDave said:

I am still trying to find the bit that mentions a "20 year rule"

Google search states

Generally, it is difficult to enforce a breach of covenant after 20 years. The Limitation Act 1980 also states that claims in land should be brought within 12 years.  However, the time starts to run from when the breach occurs, not the date of the deed.

"Generally" is doing most of the hard work in that sentence.

What's more important in your situation is you haven't been living in the property that long, and would probably have great difficulty showing that the purported breach hasn't been discussed/complained about/acted against on one or more occasions in the last 20 years.

I'm no expert, but in my experience the enforcability of covenants depends largely on what they restrict, and whether that restriction is reasonable in the modern world.  As an example, if a covenant restricted building of extensions I don't think there would be much sympathy from a court for enforcement action against an extension which was built 20 years ago.  Conversely, a covenant saying "thou shalt not park a car on your neighbour's land" has a continuing function of protecting the neighbours from inconvenience. The absence of a need to enforce the covenant previously doesn't lessen the inconvenience if such parking starts happening at a later date.  We used covenants to restrict parking in new developments because of their enduring nature - I don't remember any of the legal advice we got mentioning a 20 year time limit as a "rule".

GDB2222

Marvel123 said:

eddddy said:

Marvel123 said:

the deeds don't specifically state I have to park in the garden, and I am just after clarification I am interpreting them correctly ( as stated in original post ) and that I'm in my right to park in the shared communal spaces 

The extract from the Deed that you've posted doesn't mention "communal spaces".

It only mentions 2 types of parking spaces - "private parking spaces" and "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

Are you talking about a 3rd type of parking space called "communal spaces", or do you mean the "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces"?

The deed seems to be very clear about the rules for "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

apologies if my wording has been misleading , I have been referring to the public and private soaces as communal

-the estate  has 100 properties,
-20 have purpose built parking spaces on the front driveway of their garden , 
-5 have a rectangle space marked in the back garden on deeds as a "carport optional" 
- there are 75 spaces in the parking areas marked ( with house numbers and contain seperate titles ) for the remaining properties 
- there are 20  additional spaces in the parking areas , these are marked as a mixture of "private spaces"  and "private spaces" both on the ground and in the conveyance plan drawing within the deeds
- it is these public and private spaces used by visitors, people with 2nd cars and myself 

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

Have I understood correctly that there are 5 houses in exactly the same position as you, but you are the only one being chased about it?

Marvel123

GDB2222 said:

Marvel123 said:

eddddy said:

Marvel123 said:

the deeds don't specifically state I have to park in the garden, and I am just after clarification I am interpreting them correctly ( as stated in original post ) and that I'm in my right to park in the shared communal spaces 

The extract from the Deed that you've posted doesn't mention "communal spaces".

It only mentions 2 types of parking spaces - "private parking spaces" and "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

Are you talking about a 3rd type of parking space called "communal spaces", or do you mean the "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces"?

The deed seems to be very clear about the rules for "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

apologies if my wording has been misleading , I have been referring to the public and private soaces as communal

-the estate  has 100 properties,
-20 have purpose built parking spaces on the front driveway of their garden , 
-5 have a rectangle space marked in the back garden on deeds as a "carport optional" 
- there are 75 spaces in the parking areas marked ( with house numbers and contain seperate titles ) for the remaining properties 
- there are 20  additional spaces in the parking areas , these are marked as a mixture of "private spaces"  and "private spaces" both on the ground and in the conveyance plan drawing within the deeds
- it is these public and private spaces used by visitors, people with 2nd cars and myself 

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

Have I understood correctly that there are 5 houses in exactly the same position as you, but you are the only one being chased about it?

yes understood correctly
our of 5 houses 2 use the parking spaces marked public and private not our gardens, the others don't drive 

Browntoa

I live in a similar sort of estate . 

The residents association has an advisory role , they can ask the management company to enforce but they can choose not to enforce . 

They is very little they can actually do to enforce this parking covenant apart from ask you not to park there. They cannot tow or clamp , they cannot fine you ( although they could employ a 3rd party parking company to attempt to enforce) . They could attempt to take legal action against you for breaking the covenant but that could be costly for both parties and the costs ultimately passed on to all the residents in increased service charges.

You do realise that fighting this means that you are technically in dispute with your neighbours and would have to disclose that if you decide to sell 

GDB2222

Marvel123 said:

GDB2222 said:

Marvel123 said:

eddddy said:

Marvel123 said:

the deeds don't specifically state I have to park in the garden, and I am just after clarification I am interpreting them correctly ( as stated in original post ) and that I'm in my right to park in the shared communal spaces 

The extract from the Deed that you've posted doesn't mention "communal spaces".

It only mentions 2 types of parking spaces - "private parking spaces" and "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

Are you talking about a 3rd type of parking space called "communal spaces", or do you mean the "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces"?

The deed seems to be very clear about the rules for "parking spaces intended to become public parking spaces".

apologies if my wording has been misleading , I have been referring to the public and private soaces as communal

-the estate  has 100 properties,
-20 have purpose built parking spaces on the front driveway of their garden , 
-5 have a rectangle space marked in the back garden on deeds as a "carport optional" 
- there are 75 spaces in the parking areas marked ( with house numbers and contain seperate titles ) for the remaining properties 
- there are 20  additional spaces in the parking areas , these are marked as a mixture of "private spaces"  and "private spaces" both on the ground and in the conveyance plan drawing within the deeds
- it is these public and private spaces used by visitors, people with 2nd cars and myself 

this is where I'm having trouble understanding the deed wording
- can residents park in these "public spaces" and "private spaces" as long as it's 1 private motor car 
- does the shared spaces mean between the properties with optional carports  or all properties on the estate
- am i obliged to park in the area designated optional car port within my garden ( which has only been laid out as a garden , with patio slabs and no obvious concrete car park space as the houses who have drives on their front garden )
- am I legally allowed to park in these spaces with no allocated house nos on

Have I understood correctly that there are 5 houses in exactly the same position as you, but you are the only one being chased about it?

yes understood correctly
our of 5 houses 2 use the parking spaces marked public and private not our gardens, the others don't drive 

Is the other household that is in your position also being chased?