Holiday pay

Jackson7409

Hi, long time lurker first time posting. 

I’m currently in what can only be called a “battle” with my employer over holiday pay and don’t know where to turn next. 

I’m contracted to do 40hrs a week but do at least 45-50hrs every week sometimes up to 80hrs when it’s busy. We plan our own days/workload so the overtime is voluntary but it is also expected as without it the job stack would obviously climb. 

I’ve only recently been made aware of the average overtime holiday pay legislation and have tried to discuss this with my employer, as I think I should fall under the scope of this? I’m being met by a brick wall in every direction, I’ve provided links to government publications, ACAS & Citizens advice yet they are certain that they are following the correct procedures. I have tried to arrange a meeting to discuss but this has also been denied. Their position is that they feel they pay an “enhanced wage” to cover holidays/sickness etc and that the hourly rate is broken down to cover this. Is this correct? I can’t find anything to support their claim and they are on the verge of turning nasty. All research I have done supports my claim and I can’t find anything to support theirs. I’m in Scotland Incase that makes any difference. 

Hopefully I have included everything relevant. Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this. 

Giblets

If you raise it as an official grievance then they should meet with you either way, you should state that you would like a meeting as part of that procedure (they should have procedure in place), if no, request a copy if you have not seen it, this should let them know that you are taking this seriously.
 
However, you also need to keep in mind what you will do if they turn round and refuse (to talk about it or move on the issue)? Would you be willing to take this further, tribunal, leave the company, or would you want to stay?

I've seen plenty of employers turn nasty after employees push things (that are well within their rights), as they know a lot of employees will just leave and move on rather than upset the status quo (and cost them a lot of money!).

I'm not trying to put you off pushing this, but its something to keep in mind. I've seen plenty of similar claims and demands, but the majority of people will just keep their heads down and move on with the first opportunity.

Jackson7409

Thanks Giblets. 

I have sent them a copy of their Grievance procedures where it states that they will organise a meeting with the employee to discuss the Grievance. Yet to hear back from this! 

I’ve considered what my intentions are further down the line and do feel it’s time for a change but don’t plan to go with my tail between my legs. Currently getting my ducks in a row for my next step career wise. 

Unsure of the procedure around tribunals as I’m admittedly probably a bit naive and trusted the company to do right by me.

There are a number of us that this would affect but you’re right 90% would rather keep their heads down than upset the balance.  

superbigal

Just remember they could simply just remove overtime for you.
So be careful if you actually rely or need said overtime.

getmore4less

Clarify...

Do you get a premium over regular rate for hours over 40?

If you stick to 40 hours and work stacks up what happens?

The change in rules was relatively simple.

Weeks pay is the average of the previous 52 weeks for holiday pay

Jackson7409

Hi getmore4less, we get time and a third for any overtime. Double time for out of hours call outs. 

If I was to stick to 40hrs there would be a lot of dissatisfied customers, who would ultimately walk, and questions from my employer as to why the work hadn’t been done. I work mainly in the agricultural sector hence the busy times/longer hours. 

My understanding of the holiday pay is relatively simple but I can’t get my head around why they think they don’t have to pay an average of our hours. 

[Deleted User]

Jackson7409 said:

Thanks Giblets. 

I have sent them a copy of their Grievance procedures where it states that they will organise a meeting with the employee to discuss the Grievance. Yet to hear back from this! 

I’ve considered what my intentions are further down the line and do feel it’s time for a change but don’t plan to go with my tail between my legs. Currently getting my ducks in a row for my next step career wise. 

Unsure of the procedure around tribunals as I’m admittedly probably a bit naive and trusted the company to do right by me.

There are a number of us that this would affect but you’re right 90% would rather keep their heads down than upset the balance.  

You require to inform them that you are invoking the grievance machinery, and under the terms of their policy you wish to convene a meeting regarding this.
There can be scope for you to manoeuvre things in your favour as there will be timescales to be adhered to, if management fail to facilitate in time you can then escalate to the next level.
If you have decided you wish to prosecute a grievance use your time wisely to prepare thoroughly and go in armed with a comprehensive case statement.

Do not trust the employer to know what they are doing. 
Get yourselves unionised.

getmore4less

Jackson7409 said:

Hi getmore4less, we get time and a third for any overtime. Double time for out of hours call outs. 

If I was to stick to 40hrs there would be a lot of dissatisfied customers, who would ultimately walk, and questions from my employer as to why the work hadn’t been done. I work mainly in the agricultural sector hence the busy times/longer hours. 

My understanding of the holiday pay is relatively simple but I can’t get my head around why they think they don’t have to pay an average of our hours. 

It's not an average of hours it's an average of pay over the previous 52 weeks.

If they are saying the enhanced rates already include an element for the extra holiday pay requirements they need to reduce the rates and keep some back to cover the holiday pay.

MalMonroe

Jackson7409 said:

Hi getmore4less, we get time and a third for any overtime. Double time for out of hours call outs. 

If I was to stick to 40hrs there would be a lot of dissatisfied customers, who would ultimately walk, and questions from my employer as to why the work hadn’t been done. I work mainly in the agricultural sector hence the busy times/longer hours. 

My understanding of the holiday pay is relatively simple but I can’t get my head around why they think they don’t have to pay an average of our hours. 

It sounds to me as if your employer needs to employ more people. It's not your responsibility to ensure that dissatisfied customers don't 'walk'. If your employer wants to know why the work hasn't been done, then explain that the volume of work is totally unmanageable for the number of employees currently working there.

If your employer doesn't understand then they need to take time out to have a look around and see what is being done, by whom and how. 

This is really bad management that needs sorting out asap. And if I were you I'd be making extremely large efforts to find another, proper job.

Savvy_Sue

Jackson7409 said:

There are a number of us that this would affect but you’re right 90% would rather keep their heads down than upset the balance.  

I'd say definitely work with the willing to make it a collective issue. Too much to hope you're in a union?

getmore4less

Regarding the OT issue  has anyone done the FTE Analysis?

How many are doing this type of work.
What has the total hours been for a 12month rolling period
Any seasonal variation  that could mean not everyone is needed.

not a lot to go on but lets have a go

assumption is stat 5.6 weeks normal hours 40.

For every 9 people you need an extra 1 to cover the holidays.
10*46.4/52= 8.92

I’m contracted to do 40hrs a week but do at least 45-50hrs every week sometimes up to 80hrs

lets say an average of 50hr for the weeks you work 
using 10 people for any week there are 9 people on with 1 off

90 hours overtime is 2.25 extra persons

~12.25 to cover 9 


another way is you can cover with 40hrs for 46.4 weeks 1,856hr

if there is the need to do 52 weeks at 50hrs that's 2600.

2600/1856 = 1.4 people to do the full year doing 40hr weeks

For 9 people that would be 12.6

A rough guide would be for every 3-4 you need an extra 1
(depending on sick rates that may not be sufficient)