Permission for parabolic mirror on a telegraph pole

regency_man

Does anyone know who you need to ask for permission to put up a convex/parabolic mirror on a telegraph pole (to assist in the safe exit of our driveway)?  Is it just BT/Openreach or do you also need planning permission?

The pole is directly opposite our drive, it would be ideal if we could use it.  Are such requests typically granted?

tacpot12

You can call your local planning department to ask this question. I doubt any sort of permission will be required from the local council, although they may refer you to their highways department. There is a chance that there is some technical requirements that they have for the mirror. 

Section62

tacpot12 said:

You can call your local planning department to ask this question. I doubt any sort of permission will be required from the local council, although they may refer you to their highways department. There is a chance that there is some technical requirements that they have for the mirror. 

Mirrors of this type are legally classed as a traffic sign - there was some relaxation of the rules in 2016 which allowed traffic authorities to put them up without special approval by DfT (or equivalent)

Because they are traffic signs (when placed on the highway) they don't need planning consent.

However, they cannot be put up by private individuals without the consent of the local highway/traffic authority - to do otherwise would be an offence.  Different authorities have different policies for mirrors put up without consent - ranging from proactive removal through to pretending they aren't there.  Given mirrors can pose a danger to road users, and there is a risk of legal action being taken against the owner in the event of an accident, it would be very unwise to put up a mirror without getting consent (in writing) from the highway authority - who in some cases may only agree if the mirror is put up by the authority at the applicant's expense.

casper_gutman

Somebody asked a similar question (a camera in this case, rather than a mirror) here: https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/Permission-to-fix-camera-to-pole/td-p/1976088

The answer was basically: no, you won't get permission, and if you attach anything to a pole BT and Openreach staff won't be allowed to climb the pole for safety reasons and you'll have to remove it or pay for them to do so.

Rosa_Damascena

Section62 said:

tacpot12 said:

You can call your local planning department to ask this question. I doubt any sort of permission will be required from the local council, although they may refer you to their highways department. There is a chance that there is some technical requirements that they have for the mirror. 

Mirrors of this type are legally classed as a traffic sign - there was some relaxation of the rules in 2016 which allowed traffic authorities to put them up without special approval by DfT (or equivalent)

Because they are traffic signs (when placed on the highway) they don't need planning consent.

However, they cannot be put up by private individuals without the consent of the local highway/traffic authority - to do otherwise would be an offence.  Different authorities have different policies for mirrors put up without consent - ranging from proactive removal through to pretending they aren't there.  Given mirrors can pose a danger to road users, and there is a risk of legal action being taken against the owner in the event of an accident, it would be very unwise to put up a mirror without getting consent (in writing) from the highway authority - who in some cases may only agree if the mirror is put up by the authority at the applicant's expense.

That is such niche knowledge - impressive!

regency_man

Seems highly dependent on the ownership of the pole and the organisation involved.  According to another online forum, Openreach consider safety mirrors to be 'Permitted Attachments' and will allow them provided you seek permission first.  The issue is obviously with access to the pole and the safety of the workers, I will contact OpenReach and see what comes.

On the other hand, if you have a permitted drop-kerb access on a blind bend (probably shouldn't have been allowed in the first place but this building is 150 years old) is there any onus in Council/Highways to provide safety equipment?

Section62

regency_man said:

Seems highly dependent on the ownership of the pole and the organisation involved.  According to another online forum, Openreach consider safety mirrors to be 'Permitted Attachments' and will allow them provided you seek permission first.  The issue is obviously with access to the pole and the safety of the workers, I will contact OpenReach and see what comes.

There are two separate issues involved - the first being what the mirror is attached to, the second being where that thing is.

In the example casper_gutman linked to, the pole is in a field and therefore there is no 'highways' involvement, consent would be needed from Openreach/BT, and possibly the planning authority.

If the pole is on the highway then consent from the highway/traffic authority will be needed, and it would be sensible to get that first. (if they consent to a mirror, but Openreach say 'no', then you could get one put on a normal sign post instead)

The situation with (telephone/electric) poles on the highway is complicated and there are some organisations that have rights to place/attach equipment to them.  Therefore the comment "Openreach consider safety mirrors to be 'Permitted Attachments'" should possibly be read with the caveat 'where they belong to and are attached by the highway/traffic authority'.  Openreach don't have the powers to allow safety mirrors to be attached to their equipment in the highway without the consent of the highway/traffic authority.

regency_man said:

On the other hand, if you have a permitted drop-kerb access on a blind bend (probably shouldn't have been allowed in the first place but this building is 150 years old) is there any onus in Council/Highways to provide safety equipment?

No, especially not where the equipment has a debateable safety value.  The onus is primarily on the road user to drive/ride/walk safely.  It would be relatively easy to make an argument that a mirror could worsen rather than improve safety in a particular set of circumstances.

If the authority considered an access posed a particular safety risk due to the location, they do have powers to close it off.  Furthermore, if the access has been there a long time then there is no guarantee it has ever been 'permitted'... it could just be there because it has been there.

regency_man

I take your points.  The 'what' is very simple, it's telepgraph pole, so I'm clear that is a matter for Openreach to decide upon.

The where... it's on a grass verge set back approx 50cm from a pedestrian pavement and 1.5m from the carriageway.  Who owns the verge... no idea.

If Openreach agree to the mirror, does the verge-owner also need to give permission? 

regency_man

To be clear, this is the sort of thing we're talking about.  (this is a stock photo, I have no idea if this was done legally or not!)

EDIT: as it's covering a safety warning sign, I'm going to assume illegally in this situation!

Section62

regency_man said:

I take your points.  The 'what' is very simple, it's telepgraph pole, so I'm clear that is a matter for Openreach to decide upon.

Again, for clarity, if the pole is on highway land the decision is not one that Openreach can make on their own, unless the answer from them is a straight "No".

Furthermore, not all "telegraph" poles are the responsibility of Openreach - some poles belong to the local electricity distribution company, even in some cases where the pole only has telephone wires on them.

regency_man said:

The where... it's on a grass verge set back approx 50cm from a pedestrian pavement and 1.5m from the carriageway.  Who owns the verge... no idea.

Ownership of the land is secondary to whether or not it is highway.  If it is highway then consent will be needed from the highway/traffic authority, regardless of who owns the freehold of the land.  If the land isn't highway then consent from the landowner would be required - and in this situation the requirement for planning consent comes into play.

regency_man said:

If Openreach agree to the mirror, does the verge-owner also need to give permission?

Yes. (see above)

As I've suggested in previous posts, the best route is to start with the highway/traffic authority.  If they claim the pole is in highway land, and give you consent, then you are in a better position to make the request to the pole owner.  And you won't need to worry about working out who owns the land, or about applying for planning consent.