Flat without planning permissions

ScottSummersX

Hi all, 

I have a housing issue I hope someone can help me with/have maybe had experience of/point me in the right direction:

I broke my Assured Short-term 1-year Tenancy contract with my landlord after a few months due to difficulties in receiving deliveries. I later discovered and received confirmation from the Council that the landlord never received planning permissions for that flat which was therefore not in Royal Mail's systems (hence the issues with the deliveries). The Council also confirmed they're going to issue the landlord enforcement notices early this year.

I asked the landlord for the return of my deposit which they refused and I then raised a dispute with the deposit scheme through which my deposit was insured. They basically didn't take a decision due to the pending court action against the landlord from the Council as mentioned above, saying the case now falls outside their remit, so the only possible option left for me is to have a court issue an order.

Things I've done so far:

- Consulted with Citizen Advice, Shelter and a lawyer specialised in housing and litigation. Everyone's feedback is basically the same, that a court will need to decide whether my breaking the lease or the landlord not having the proper planning permissions in place before renting the flat is the worst offence. 

- I was wondering however if anyone had any experience with renting flats missing planning permissions and could offer any advice on how litigation might turn out? 

- I was also paying council tax as part of my rent but the landlord wasn't then paying that to the Council if the flat wasn't registered. I'm now thinking if I could claim that back. I'd also be happy to pay that back to the Council, it just doesn't seem right for the landlord to keep it. 

- I also looked into a Rent Repayment Order but that particular Council doesn't run a single licensing scheme so it would only be applicable if this was an House of Multiple Occupation.

If you have any insights or ideas on any of the above, your feedback would be much appreciated. Please also let me know if I omitted any information which could be useful here. 

Many thanks in advance for your help and regards.

IamWood

ScottSummersX said:

Hi all, 

I have a housing issue I hope someone can help me with/have maybe had experience of/point me in the right direction:

I broke my Assured Short-term 1-year Tenancy contract with my landlord after a few months due to difficulties in receiving deliveries. I later discovered and received confirmation from the Council that the landlord never received planning permissions for that flat which was therefore not in Royal Mail's systems (hence the issues with the deliveries). The Council also confirmed they're going to issue the landlord enforcement notices early this year.

I asked the landlord for the return of my deposit which they refused and I then raised a dispute with the deposit scheme through which my deposit was insured. They basically didn't take a decision due to the pending court action against the landlord from the Council as mentioned above, saying the case now falls outside their remit, so the only possible option left for me is to have a court issue an order.

Things I've done so far:

- Consulted with Citizen Advice, Shelter and a lawyer specialised in housing and litigation. Everyone's feedback is basically the same, that a court will need to decide whether my breaking the lease or the landlord not having the proper planning permissions in place before renting the flat is the worst offence. 

- I was wondering however if anyone had any experience with renting flats missing planning permissions and could offer any advice on how litigation might turn out? 

- I was also paying council tax as part of my rent but the landlord wasn't then paying that to the Council if the flat wasn't registered. I'm now thinking if I could claim that back. I'd also be happy to pay that back to the Council, it just doesn't seem right for the landlord to keep it. 

- I also looked into a Rent Repayment Order but that particular Council doesn't run a single licensing scheme so it would only be applicable if this was an House of Multiple Occupation.

If you have any insights or ideas on any of the above, your feedback would be much appreciated. Please also let me know if I omitted any information which could be useful here. 

Many thanks in advance for your help and regards.

Since they rent illegally, you might not pay anything if you play hard.

How come you pay the council tax directly to your landlord instead of the council? Did you know anything before renting the flat at all?

Slithery

ScottSummersX said:

- I was also paying council tax as part of my rent but the landlord wasn't then paying that to the Council if the flat wasn't registered. I'm now thinking if I could claim that back. I'd also be happy to pay that back to the Council, it just doesn't seem right for the landlord to keep it.

If the council decide that it should have been individually banded then you are liable for the outstanding tax bill, not the LL. You'll need to pay this ASAP as it's the only household bill that you can be jailed for for not paying.

It would then be up to you to claim the money back from your LL through the courts by evidencing your AST which stated that the council tax was included.

ScottSummersX

IamWood said:

ScottSummersX said:

Hi all, 

I have a housing issue I hope someone can help me with/have maybe had experience of/point me in the right direction:

I broke my Assured Short-term 1-year Tenancy contract with my landlord after a few months due to difficulties in receiving deliveries. I later discovered and received confirmation from the Council that the landlord never received planning permissions for that flat which was therefore not in Royal Mail's systems (hence the issues with the deliveries). The Council also confirmed they're going to issue the landlord enforcement notices early this year.

I asked the landlord for the return of my deposit which they refused and I then raised a dispute with the deposit scheme through which my deposit was insured. They basically didn't take a decision due to the pending court action against the landlord from the Council as mentioned above, saying the case now falls outside their remit, so the only possible option left for me is to have a court issue an order.

Things I've done so far:

- Consulted with Citizen Advice, Shelter and a lawyer specialised in housing and litigation. Everyone's feedback is basically the same, that a court will need to decide whether my breaking the lease or the landlord not having the proper planning permissions in place before renting the flat is the worst offence. 

- I was wondering however if anyone had any experience with renting flats missing planning permissions and could offer any advice on how litigation might turn out? 

- I was also paying council tax as part of my rent but the landlord wasn't then paying that to the Council if the flat wasn't registered. I'm now thinking if I could claim that back. I'd also be happy to pay that back to the Council, it just doesn't seem right for the landlord to keep it. 

- I also looked into a Rent Repayment Order but that particular Council doesn't run a single licensing scheme so it would only be applicable if this was an House of Multiple Occupation.

If you have any insights or ideas on any of the above, your feedback would be much appreciated. Please also let me know if I omitted any information which could be useful here. 

Many thanks in advance for your help and regards.

Since they rent illegally, you might not pay anything if you play hard.

How come you pay the council tax directly to your landlord instead of the council? Did you know anything before renting the flat at all?

I wasn't aware of the flat's non-registered status when I signed the lease. My contract stated my rent included all bills inc. Council Tax and it's explicitly called out in the contract. The landlord obviously wasn't going to let me sign up for any utilities and taxes for a flat which didn't technically exist, hence the "everything included" formula. 

CIS

ScottSummersX said:

IamWood said:

ScottSummersX said:

Hi all, 

I have a housing issue I hope someone can help me with/have maybe had experience of/point me in the right direction:

I broke my Assured Short-term 1-year Tenancy contract with my landlord after a few months due to difficulties in receiving deliveries. I later discovered and received confirmation from the Council that the landlord never received planning permissions for that flat which was therefore not in Royal Mail's systems (hence the issues with the deliveries). The Council also confirmed they're going to issue the landlord enforcement notices early this year.

I asked the landlord for the return of my deposit which they refused and I then raised a dispute with the deposit scheme through which my deposit was insured. They basically didn't take a decision due to the pending court action against the landlord from the Council as mentioned above, saying the case now falls outside their remit, so the only possible option left for me is to have a court issue an order.

Things I've done so far:

- Consulted with Citizen Advice, Shelter and a lawyer specialised in housing and litigation. Everyone's feedback is basically the same, that a court will need to decide whether my breaking the lease or the landlord not having the proper planning permissions in place before renting the flat is the worst offence. 

- I was wondering however if anyone had any experience with renting flats missing planning permissions and could offer any advice on how litigation might turn out? 

- I was also paying council tax as part of my rent but the landlord wasn't then paying that to the Council if the flat wasn't registered. I'm now thinking if I could claim that back. I'd also be happy to pay that back to the Council, it just doesn't seem right for the landlord to keep it. 

- I also looked into a Rent Repayment Order but that particular Council doesn't run a single licensing scheme so it would only be applicable if this was an House of Multiple Occupation.

If you have any insights or ideas on any of the above, your feedback would be much appreciated. Please also let me know if I omitted any information which could be useful here. 

Many thanks in advance for your help and regards.

Since they rent illegally, you might not pay anything if you play hard.

How come you pay the council tax directly to your landlord instead of the council? Did you know anything before renting the flat at all?

I wasn't aware of the flat's non-registered status when I signed the lease. My contract stated my rent included all bills inc. Council Tax and it's explicitly called out in the contract. The landlord obviously wasn't going to let me sign up for any utilities and taxes for a flat which didn't technically exist, hence the "everything included" formula. 

It's a bit late now but always be very careful over 'council tax included' as, a lot of the time, it's not legally correct. Over the years of working in council tax these have probably caused more issues than any other situation.

ProDave

So the landlord split his house to make a separate flat without PP?

The usual remedy is for the council first to demand he apply for planning permission.  If that is rejected he can appeal.  ONLY if that is also rejected can the council issue enforecement  notice to make him put things back as they are.  There is easily enough delay there to last out your tenancy of a year before anyone is going to evict you to enforce conversion back to a single dwelling.

Re not being on the Postcode Address File.  I am in that boat.  My new house is on all the address registers except the PAF, I pay council tac on it, I have electricity and telephone, it is on the electoral register.  but not being on the PAF is not an issue, at worst you have to manually enter the address when ordering something.  This is an issue affecting many new properties even perfectly legal ones.  As long as you have a clear house name / number sign it won't take long for the local postman to get to know it.

ScottSummersX

ProDave said:

So the landlord split his house to make a separate flat without PP?

The usual remedy is for the council first to demand he apply for planning permission.  If that is rejected he can appeal.  ONLY if that is also rejected can the council issue enforecement  notice to make him put things back as they are.  There is easily enough delay there to last out your tenancy of a year before anyone is going to evict you to enforce conversion back to a single dwelling.

Re not being on the Postcode Address File.  I am in that boat.  My new house is on all the address registers except the PAF, I pay council tac on it, I have electricity and telephone, it is on the electoral register.  but not being on the PAF is not an issue, at worst you have to manually enter the address when ordering something.  This is an issue affecting many new properties even perfectly legal ones.  As long as you have a clear house name / number sign it won't take long for the local postman to get to know it.

Thanks for your insights and for sharing your experience!

Regarding the Postcode Address File, it isn't so much a practical issue anymore as I've now left that flat, but a legal one. What I'm trying to understand is if the lack of planning permissions/impossibility to get deliveries qualifies as a misrepresentation on the landlord's part and could convince a judge to order the return of my deposit. FYI the flat wasn't accessible from the building's main entrance but could only be accessed by the service entrance. 

ScottSummersX

Reupping this as I'm at my wits end and the advice received from Citizens Advice and the like, while very welcome, is quite inconclusive.

In a nutshell: has anyone had any experience with renting a flat missing planning permissions from the Council? I have no option but to take my landlord to Court if I want my deposit back but I would like to understand if I have a case as taking someone to Court carries considerable risks. 

user1977

I don't think the planning position is relevant, unless it actually resulted in a practical problem for you e.g. enforcement action was taken and you had to leave. I can't see that it's caused you any actual loss.

ScottSummersX

user1977 said:

I don't think the planning position is relevant, unless it actually resulted in a practical problem for you e.g. enforcement action was taken and you had to leave. I can't see that it's caused you any actual loss.

Well I've lost my deposit so far as the landlord has refused to return it. I broke my lease early due to the impossibility of getting deliveries and the landlord is now saying they won't return my deposit. What I'm trying to understand is if the delivery issues/lack of planning permission could be used in Court to argue misrepresentation on the landlord's part to win back my deposit. 

user1977

ScottSummersX said:

user1977 said:

I don't think the planning position is relevant, unless it actually resulted in a practical problem for you e.g. enforcement action was taken and you had to leave. I can't see that it's caused you any actual loss.

Well I've lost my deposit so far as the landlord has refused to return it. I broke my lease early due to the impossibility of getting deliveries and the landlord is now saying they won't return my deposit. What I'm trying to understand is if the delivery issues/lack of planning permission could be used in Court to argue misrepresentation on the landlord's part to win back my deposit. 

Surely the deposit being lost is because you've purported to break the lease when you weren't entitled to do so? Or have I misunderstood?

The difficulties with deliveries are just an annoying admin problem. It's no different from, say, those moving into newbuild properties which aren't yet on everybody's databases - it's not a fundamental breach by the landlord of their responsibilities.