Woke to a wet patch under a TRV - potential cause and possible fix?

Bendy_House

BooJewels said:

Eldi_Dos said:

One of my most treasured is my father in laws small wooden and brass spirit level made by Rabone and Sons of Birmingham,everytime I use it brings back good memories. Although I am always in two minds whether I should remove and polish up the brass and sand and oil the wood or leave it as it is showing signs of use over the years.

Apologies, I'd meant to reply to this earlier.  That's a perpetual dilemma isn't it.  I've been repairing and cleaning a few things from my parents' house and am never sure how far to take it.  I've got everything from furniture to lamps and ornaments, tools and watches.  I have to decide on a piece by piece basis.  I've just repaired a missing chunk from the edge of a long shallow waxed bookcase.  This bit was missing all my life - but it's new location in my lounge made the damage catch the light and your eye was drawn to it.  As I can't remember where the bookcase even came from and how it was damaged, it seemed fair game to sort it out - the damage itself had no sentimental meaning.  I could have built a new bookcase in the time that modest repair took - matching the colour and finish etc.  But I'm delighted with the result. 

Another small late 50s early G-Plan triangular table has a very visible repair on one corner - but I did that as a toddler when I face-planted the table - and I have a matching scar on my forehead.  That won't be messed with, despite re-working the surface to improve it visibly.  It also bears a lot of rings from drinks glasses and whilst I've bleached some of these back a little, they too will remain.  I knew that was the right decision when I found a black and white photo of my uncle asleep in an armchair on Christmas Day at some time in the early 60s, next to this table with his glass on it.   Sometimes it's the patina that makes the piece.  I smiled when I used that little old adjustable wrench this morning - it's a lovely thing in the hand, like it was made just for me.

Lovely stories, and even better memories - face-planting excepted.

Ah, what a lovely coppery patina that water has! Well caught :-)

Hopefully the extra tweak will do the job, but if not then just keep catching the drips until a larger job is required on your CH. To fix that draincock is easy (nicely different - you'll enjoy it...), but the system needs draining first - a right pain.

So hopefully it has now stopped, but if it hasn't then just catch it.

BooJewels

Thanks @Bendy_House - I had meant to ask about the colour - gorgeous isn't it.  I'd wondered if it is just from the copper pipes, or maybe whatever stuff they put in the water when they refill it?  I also forgot to add that the pressure on the boiler was 1.3 Bar when it was cold from overnight and it went up to 1.8 Bar once it was hot again.  So that seems about in the right ballpark for now.  I'll continue to monitor it - and hopefully the drip, if not fully stopped, has at least been significantly reduced.

Can I perhaps ask another supplementary question - as I asked it in the Energy board in another thread I started there and didn't get a definitive answer to this bit.  I'm looking at using the boiler to run a shower, as my electric shower is going to get much more expensive.  I'm starting by adding a bath tap hose leading to a shower head to see if there's sufficient pressure etc. before I look at a permanent plumbing fix.  Just want to try it cheaply before I decide.

What would be more efficient in terms of energy use and water flow rate etc. - running the boiler water temp at 55°C (which it's at now) and adding some cold water to the mix to taste - or turning the boiler down to say 40-45°C and just using the hot water tap?  My quick and dirty tests suggest that the hot tap flow rate drops when cold is run at the same time, even slowly - which is no great surprise.  It suggests to me that running the boiler at a lower temp and only using the hot tap at full flow would be the most efficient?

Bendy_House

BooJewels said:

Thanks @Bendy_House - I had meant to ask about the colour - gorgeous isn't it.  I'd wondered if it is just from the copper pipes, or maybe whatever stuff they put in the water when they refill it?  I also forgot to add that the pressure on the boiler was 1.3 Bar when it was cold from overnight and it went up to 1.8 Bar once it was hot again.  So that seems about in the right ballpark for now.  I'll continue to monitor it - and hopefully the drip, if not fully stopped, has at least been significantly reduced.

Can I perhaps ask another supplementary question - as I asked it in the Energy board in another thread I started there and didn't get a definitive answer to this bit.  I'm looking at using the boiler to run a shower, as my electric shower is going to get much more expensive.  I'm starting by adding a bath tap hose leading to a shower head to see if there's sufficient pressure etc. before I look at a permanent plumbing fix.  Just want to try it cheaply before I decide.

What would be more efficient in terms of energy use and water flow rate etc. - running the boiler water temp at 55°C (which it's at now) and adding some cold water to the mix to taste - or turning the boiler down to say 40-45°C and just using the hot water tap?  My quick and dirty tests suggest that the hot tap flow rate drops when cold is run at the same time, even slowly - which is no great surprise.  It suggests to me that running the boiler at a lower temp and only using the hot tap at full flow would be the most efficient?

1.3 cold is ok (tho' fractionally higher than is needed) and rising to 1.8 is acceptable (tho' ideally I'd rather not have that much of a rise (matron!)). But as long as it doesn't start going over 2 bar, I wouldn't worry.

I wouldn't top up the pressure again until it falls below 1 bar, and then I'd just ease it up to just above the 1 bar. If that wee drip is your only issue, then it isn't going to drop again for many, many months...

This is a combi boiler? I don't think it's realistic to expect it to be able to deliver a constant hot water flow temp of the required ~39oC; I don't think it'll manage that. It would be fun to try, tho', and I guess that would be the most efficient use of the boiler, as in theory the main exchanger would also have to be running 'low' to manage these temps, and the cooler it is, the better. (Assuming they do 'condense' in DHW mode too?)

Since this is a combi boiler - and hence mains-water-powered - there should be more than enough pressure to run your hose at whatever height you want - in fact height shouldn't affect it by any discernable amount in your bathroom.

Really, the best system is a thermostatic mixer, either one mounted separately on the wall above the bath, or else replace the bath taps with a bath/shower deck thermostatic mixer.

'Thermostatic' just takes all the hassle and literal agony out of having a combi shower. And a MUCH better shower than the leccy one it will be. 

BooJewels

Thanks @Bendy_House - again.  I did think that the change in pressure was greater than I expected.  I filled it when I first posted about this drip in the cellar and losing pressure and getting the F22 warning and haven't touched anything since then.  The problem with filling it up is that the pressure reading on the display always seems to time off at around 1 bar, so you can only then guess from the little diagram.  It's hard to get an accurate reading as you're filling it.  I'm hoping that I don't need to do it again.  Each time I've done it, it has ended up a smidge higher than I'd intended.

If it looks like it will work to give me a less expensive shower with this strap on hose arrangement, then I'll have to try and find a plumber to fit the right equipment - unfortunately the taps are at the wrong end of the bath to just change that to the right sort.  So, as you say, I either need to swap the end for the taps with a combined tap/shower mixer or add a shower 'tap' at the shower end and leave the bath taps where they are.

When we first had a combi boiler fitted about 22 years ago, we asked then about it feeding the shower and were told at the time that there wasn't enough pressure, or the right pipes or something, so continued with the electric shower.  It was only after my new boiler was fitted in November that I realised that I perhaps should have addressed it again at the same time.

So this hose attachment is just a personal experiment to see if it has potential to actually save money, before I go through the agony of trying to find a willing plumber.  It's taken me months to try and source a roofer.

Bendy_House

BooJewels said:

Thanks @Bendy_House - again.  I did think that the change in pressure was greater than I expected.  I filled it when I first posted about this drip in the cellar and losing pressure and getting the F22 warning and haven't touched anything since then.  The problem with filling it up is that the pressure reading on the display always seems to time off at around 1 bar, so you can only then guess from the little diagram.  It's hard to get an accurate reading as you're filling it.  I'm hoping that I don't need to do it again.  Each time I've done it, it has ended up a smidge higher than I'd intended.

If it looks like it will work to give me a less expensive shower with this strap on hose arrangement, then I'll have to try and find a plumber to fit the right equipment - unfortunately the taps are at the wrong end of the bath to just change that to the right sort.  So, as you say, I either need to swap the end for the taps with a combined tap/shower mixer or add a shower 'tap' at the shower end and leave the bath taps where they are.

When we first had a combi boiler fitted about 22 years ago, we asked then about it feeding the shower and were told at the time that there wasn't enough pressure, or the right pipes or something, so continued with the electric shower.  It was only after my new boiler was fitted in November that I realised that I perhaps should have addressed it again at the same time.

So this hose attachment is just a personal experiment to see if it has potential to actually save money, before I go through the agony of trying to find a willing plumber.  It's taken me months to try and source a roofer.

A combi boiler should not be fitted unless there's enough flow and pressure to supply it. When you open your bath and basin taps, does the water flow quite briskly, with 'gusty'?!

It almost certainly will be good enough.

The plumber's comments from 22 years ago are a bit strange.

Anyhoo, try the hose - if the water comes out fast enough whilst holding the end up over yer 'ead, you should be fine :-)

BooJewels

I can't quite remember what the issue was in the past, in respect of the shower, just that it didn't/couldn't get done.

I did some rough flow tests last night and the kitchen cold tap seems to be around 20 litres per minute and once hot, the flow rate from the hot tap was around 17 litres/minute - dropping a bit if I added some cold running too - a bit less when it was warming up.  All were a smidge less in the bathroom.

It seems to have enough gusto through the shower head though - as my wet carpet and trousers attest!  

The shower head has a bit wider spread than my usual one and than I was expecting and the suction bracket I want to use temporarily has limited adjustment and can't quite sit it at the ideal angle, so it's going to need a bit more thought yet.  I'm at full stretch reaching to make adjustments and got bored with it, so might leave it until I shower tomorrow and won't mind getting wet and can reach better from inside the bath.

Bendy_House

Excellent. Wet troos is a good indicator:-)

20 lpm is plenty good, even split between the hot and cold as it will be to some degree. This is going to give you a MUCH better shower than the leccy jobbie. Much.
You can get all sorts of handset extensions and stuff, but it might be limited if you are trying to 'stick' the holder on rather than using screws.
You will also find you'll be able to use a larger shower head, perhaps an adjustable one for different showering needs.
Good move - gas is, what?, a third the cost of leccy? So you'll have a thrice-better shower for the same money, or reduce the flow and save a bit.

BooJewels

The suction holder is very much a temporary testing measure - as is the tap hose jobby - just because I already have it anyway for using the shower in a lower position, when I'm colouring my hair.  That has its own problems though, as once all wet, I have to try and get on a stool to switch the electric shower off - I can't actually reach it unaided unless I'm stood in the bath - the peril of being 4'11".  Being able to use a boiler driven one, will also make it much easier to reach the taps/controls, to set it going before getting in.

My gas is currently a smidge over 26% of my electricity price, hence me re-visiting this at the moment - as I spend longer in the shower than perhaps I should - and it's going to get expensive.

Bendy_House

In relative terms, showering is 'cheap'.

BooJewels

Morning.  I've tried it this morning - worked pretty well, although I'd need to find a way to keep the hose out of the way, that was a nuisance.  I futzed about a bit trying to position it again - having decided last night on that, changed my mind, which I think was worth it.  Plus it took a bit of trial and error to get the temperature right.  But once I did, it worked really well - no temperature fluctuation throughout at all.  Good flow - better than the electric shower and I consequently used a smidge more water.  I forgot to time how long I was in there, but I know it was a bit longer, as I did just stand there enjoying it, after a rough night with cramp and muscle spasms.

I turned the heating off and took meter readings before and after and used 0.271 of a m3 - which is 3.06kWh = 22p.   I did also use the hand basin in that time too. I reckon my 8 minute electric showers cost 34p (9kW shower / 60 x 8 = 1.2kWh) - so not as much of a saving as I was thinking.   Even if I had a full shower every day of the year, I'd only save £43.80 per year, which is 84p / week - perhaps not worth it.

I'll try tomorrow with the boiler temp lower and just using hot water and see if that makes a difference and try it over a few days to get an average cost before I make a decision.