What are my consumer rights when a smart appliance is remotely downgraded?

Sandtree

RogerBareford said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Does the OP have any smart home hub, for example Alexa or Google Home (Nest)?  Can the smart speakers be controlled from the smart hub, in which case a routine could be set to achieve the functionality, so "Alexa, turn the volume down" and the result is
speaker one, reduce volume
speaker two, reduce volume
speaker three, reduce volume 
etc.

There might be a momentary time as the smart hub follows the sequence, but I suspect that will be unnoticeable.

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Most patents are "obvious ideas" now that they are widely in use... touch screens used in mobile phones, slide to unlock, one click purchase but someone came up with the idea and the mechanisms to make it work. Thankfully most systemic type solutions have fairly generic mass licensing approaches and given all the tech companies own hundreds if not thousands of patents then there is a lot of netting off going on in the fees due

Grumpy_chap

RogerBareford said:

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Whatever may or may not be a breach of the patent, how would a solution like that I described be prevented? 

Maybe Google could block this from being put into effect using Google Home / Google Nest, but I doubt they could do the same to block that outcome if the input device was Alexa, unless Google made their product incompatible with Alexa.  That would be a significant step and change the functionality considerably, in my opinion.

I don't have the same thing with controlling volume, but I do have three electric blinds. 
The blinds were shipped with a remote control that allows me to select each individual blind and operate, or to select "all" blinds and operate the same.  The comparison to the OP's case would be that the "all" function is removed from the remote control.

I also have an Alexa and the blinds can be controlled from Alexa.  The instructions from Alexa to the blinds are always individual, for one blind only, but I have a routine in Alexa called "bed time" and when "bed time" runs it follows a number of instructions, each as individual instructions, but in such quick succession, the events happen "instantaneously" to all intents and purpose:

• lower blind 1
• lower blind 2
• lower blind 3
• turn off lights in garden
• turn off lights in living room 
• turn off lights in hall
• etc

That routine is set for a time of day but can also be manually activated if desired.

I can't see why the OP could not have a similar routine comprising a sequence of volume adjustments, so the routine "volume down" would operate each speaker to the next volume step down in turn.

RogerBareford

Sandtree said:

RogerBareford said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Does the OP have any smart home hub, for example Alexa or Google Home (Nest)?  Can the smart speakers be controlled from the smart hub, in which case a routine could be set to achieve the functionality, so "Alexa, turn the volume down" and the result is
speaker one, reduce volume
speaker two, reduce volume
speaker three, reduce volume 
etc.

There might be a momentary time as the smart hub follows the sequence, but I suspect that will be unnoticeable.

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Most patents are "obvious ideas" now that they are widely in use... touch screens used in mobile phones, slide to unlock, one click purchase but someone came up with the idea and the mechanisms to make it work. Thankfully most systemic type solutions have fairly generic mass licensing approaches and given all the tech companies own hundreds if not thousands of patents then there is a lot of netting off going on in the fees due

I understand what you are saying about most being obvious ideas, but in this case the first 2 channel audio system was demonstrated in 1881 and they had multiple speakers playing music with the volume being adjusted on multiple speakers using one control. By the time sonos looked at filing this patent (which appears to have started in 2003) there had been 122 years of systems where multiple speakers are controlled by one volume control.

When they filed this patent they wern't protecting a new idea, they were getting in first to patent this because they could see that network connected speakers were going to grow in popularity and this would be an expected feature so a good market advantage/money maker for them.

Sandtree

RogerBareford said:

Sandtree said:

RogerBareford said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Does the OP have any smart home hub, for example Alexa or Google Home (Nest)?  Can the smart speakers be controlled from the smart hub, in which case a routine could be set to achieve the functionality, so "Alexa, turn the volume down" and the result is
speaker one, reduce volume
speaker two, reduce volume
speaker three, reduce volume 
etc.

There might be a momentary time as the smart hub follows the sequence, but I suspect that will be unnoticeable.

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Most patents are "obvious ideas" now that they are widely in use... touch screens used in mobile phones, slide to unlock, one click purchase but someone came up with the idea and the mechanisms to make it work. Thankfully most systemic type solutions have fairly generic mass licensing approaches and given all the tech companies own hundreds if not thousands of patents then there is a lot of netting off going on in the fees due

I understand what you are saying about most being obvious ideas, but in this case the first 2 channel audio system was demonstrated in 1881 and they had multiple speakers playing music with the volume being adjusted on multiple speakers using one control. By the time sonos looked at filing this patent (which appears to have started in 2003) there had been 122 years of systems where multiple speakers are controlled by one volume control.

When they filed this patent they wern't protecting a new idea, they were getting in first to patent this because they could see that network connected speakers were going to grow in popularity and this would be an expected feature so a good market advantage/money maker for them.

Its not apples and apples though... the 1881 had multiple speakers physically connected to the same device and that device controlled the volume and the speakers blindly played what they were sent.

Sonos appear to have come up with the way of getting independent unconnected speakers to be able to be remotely grouped together and play music in such a way to ensure they keep in time with each other, its known which are playing the left/right channel and consistent volume is maintained. It may ultimately achieve the same effect as wiring passive speakers into a hifi amp but its the technology behind how its achieved thats patented 

Inevitably when any patent is proposed others and the patent office themselves will challenge if its actually a new invention and novel enough to warrant a patent... hence we get all the press with high profile cases like Apple's attempt to patent the "pinch to zoom" functionality.

RogerBareford

Grumpy_chap said:

RogerBareford said:

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Whatever may or may not be a breach of the patent, how would a solution like that I described be prevented? 

Maybe Google could block this from being put into effect using Google Home / Google Nest, but I doubt they could do the same to block that outcome if the input device was Alexa, unless Google made their product incompatible with Alexa.  That would be a significant step and change the functionality considerably, in my opinion.

I don't have the same thing with controlling volume, but I do have three electric blinds. 
The blinds were shipped with a remote control that allows me to select each individual blind and operate, or to select "all" blinds and operate the same.  The comparison to the OP's case would be that the "all" function is removed from the remote control.

I also have an Alexa and the blinds can be controlled from Alexa.  The instructions from Alexa to the blinds are always individual, for one blind only, but I have a routine in Alexa called "bed time" and when "bed time" runs it follows a number of instructions, each as individual instructions, but in such quick succession, the events happen "instantaneously" to all intents and purpose:

• lower blind 1
• lower blind 2
• lower blind 3
• turn off lights in garden
• turn off lights in living room 
• turn off lights in hall
• etc

That routine is set for a time of day but can also be manually activated if desired.

I can't see why the OP could not have a similar routine comprising a sequence of volume adjustments, so the routine "volume down" would operate each speaker to the next volume step down in turn.

They have effectively prevented it by not making it possible to control the volume using a routine or external service.

I've just looked at the Alexa app and tried to make a routine where i give a command and it adjusts the volume on other Amazon Echos and this isn't an option and will only adjust the volume on the speaker you give the command too. I've also checked IFTTT and neither Amazon nor Google allow the volume of any devices to be controlled by this.

There does appear to be a workaround where you can use "AlexaRemote2" to make a routine that does it but that's third party software and you have to let it have access to your Amazon account.

But this doesn't help with Google devices.

Sandtree said:

RogerBareford said:

Sandtree said:

RogerBareford said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Does the OP have any smart home hub, for example Alexa or Google Home (Nest)?  Can the smart speakers be controlled from the smart hub, in which case a routine could be set to achieve the functionality, so "Alexa, turn the volume down" and the result is
speaker one, reduce volume
speaker two, reduce volume
speaker three, reduce volume 
etc.

There might be a momentary time as the smart hub follows the sequence, but I suspect that will be unnoticeable.

Looking at the patent it appears to cover any method which involves in a user interacting with one device to adjust the volume which then susequently adjusts the volume on other devices on a local area network. So any work around like you suggested will also be a breach of the patent unfortunetly.

But personally i think this is a stupid patent as it seems an obvious feature that most people would want any group of speakers in the same room to be the same volume so it's not exactly a unique idea that should be protected.

Most patents are "obvious ideas" now that they are widely in use... touch screens used in mobile phones, slide to unlock, one click purchase but someone came up with the idea and the mechanisms to make it work. Thankfully most systemic type solutions have fairly generic mass licensing approaches and given all the tech companies own hundreds if not thousands of patents then there is a lot of netting off going on in the fees due

I understand what you are saying about most being obvious ideas, but in this case the first 2 channel audio system was demonstrated in 1881 and they had multiple speakers playing music with the volume being adjusted on multiple speakers using one control. By the time sonos looked at filing this patent (which appears to have started in 2003) there had been 122 years of systems where multiple speakers are controlled by one volume control.

When they filed this patent they wern't protecting a new idea, they were getting in first to patent this because they could see that network connected speakers were going to grow in popularity and this would be an expected feature so a good market advantage/money maker for them.

Its not apples and apples though... the 1881 had multiple speakers physically connected to the same device and that device controlled the volume and the speakers blindly played what they were sent.

Sonos appear to have come up with the way of getting independent unconnected speakers to be able to be remotely grouped together and play music in such a way to ensure they keep in time with each other, its known which are playing the left/right channel and consistent volume is maintained. It may ultimately achieve the same effect as wiring passive speakers into a hifi amp but its the technology behind how its achieved thats patented 

Inevitably when any patent is proposed others and the patent office themselves will challenge if its actually a new invention and novel enough to warrant a patent... hence we get all the press with high profile cases like Apple's attempt to patent the "pinch to zoom" functionality.

That's not what i understand the issue to be because the grouping of devices, playing music in sync or left/right channel isn't what was being looked at here. The speaker systems are still able to all play music in sync and that feature hasn't been removed or questioned by sonos.

The issue appears to be just about controlling the volume on 1 device and having a group of devices copy it. So if you say "Volume 7" for example they all set to volume 7 and nothing more technical than that.

The patent appears to be covering all it's bases and a direct quote from there is "The present invention may be implemented in many forms including software, hardware or a combination of both". So all they have done is patented the idea that volume on multiple speakers should be all adjusted at once and covered all the ways it could be done as a bit of a money spinner for sonos. That's why Google can't just keep the feature by doing it another way because they seem to have covered everything.

I just don't agree that these kinds of patents should be allowed through as they don't really cover a new idea in my opinion.

Grumpy_chap

RogerBareford said:

They have effectively prevented it by not making it possible to control the volume using a routine or external service.

I am not sure I entirely follow, but I do not have the equipment or similar to try that and not going to get it just to try it.  

I did note, however, the feature still seems to be offered on the website:

"Audio Anywhere package

Two Nest Mini speakers

It's a big start to your home audio system. Music sounds great on one Nest Mini, with powerful, rich bass. Group two together and audio sounds twice as big from room to room."
https://store.google.com/gb/product/audio_anywhere_package?hl=en-GB

"Room-filling Audio package

Two Nest Audio speakers

Hear music the way that it should sound with crisp vocals and powerful bass. Pair two Nest Audio speakers for stereo sound. Or group them for amazing sound across multiple rooms."

https://store.google.com/gb/product/room_filling_audio_package?hl=en-GB

Jenni_D

Pedant-alert ... what you've quoted doesn't imply/infer/state (choose as applicable) that the audio volumes are synchronised, just that the audio content is synchronised. So they're not incorrect - just subtly-worded.

(Neither web page mentions the word volume, but I accept that the Stereo statement would lead one to assume that the volume levels would be aligned).

Grumpy_chap

Well, you may be correct Jenni, but the average consumer would likely read that advertising that the system with with a full level of synchronisation.

Not that I can be of any help to the OP though in what they can do.

Semple

speaker_guy said:

Any advice on taking on a multi-billion pound company that takes its users for mugs?

Make sure you have deep pockets!

Grumpy_chap

I was just proceeding through my Alexa setting looking for how to do something I've not worked out yet, when I stumbled across something that made me think of this thread.

In Alexa, follow this:
 - More 
 - Settings
 - Device Settings
 - "+" sign
then three options pop up at the bottom, the third reads "Combine speakers set up multi-room music, a home cinema or a stereo pair."

I don't have any speakers to do that with but if the OP's speakers will work with Alexa, can this function not do what the OP wants?  Assuming the OP has Alexa.  OR, if the OP has a different hub, it may have the same kind of feature built in.