Property of estate

rebel55

I have been reading and following this forum for the last year, and thank you all,for helping me understand the rules of Probate and inheritance. My elderly father passed away in Feb 2021, from hospital acquired Covid. He had returned home and over a matter of days he passed it on to my very frail mum, with advanced Alzheimer's, and her resident carer. She died 2 weeks after him.  Their estates have been dealt with the solicitors who held their mirror wills,   My brother and I are joint executors, with 4 grandchildren as beneficiaries. There has been much upset and theoutcome is there is little communication between us, emails go via Solicitor. The Probate and grant now obtained for both estates. My sister in law removed jewellery(2rings?) from their home in 2020, and I was told for 'safe keeping' These were already promised to my daughter, I insisted that they were listed under mums chattels in Grant.
I want to make a proposition to Brother, that my daughter from her inheritance( will) will give cash to their 2 children, a generous offer of double value of said rings by the valuer and auctioneer.  So that they can purchase something in memory of their grandparents!  I was outraged by her blatant behaviour and I need to have this ring to be reminded of my mum, and likewise my daughter  of her beloved grandmother.    There are many struggles ahead with 2 properties to empty and sell.   I wanted to see what these knowledgeable people on forum advise?

theoretica

rebel55 said:

I have been reading and following this forum for the last year, and thank you all,for helping me understand the rules of Probate and inheritance. My elderly father passed away in Feb 2021, from hospital acquired Covid. He had returned home and over a matter of days he passed it on to my very frail mum, with advanced Alzheimer's, and her resident carer. She died 2 weeks after him.  Their estates have been dealt with the solicitors who held their mirror wills,   My brother and I are joint executors, with 4 grandchildren as beneficiaries. There has been much upset and theoutcome is there is little communication between us, emails go via Solicitor. The Probate and grant now obtained for both estates. My sister in law removed jewellery(2rings?) from their home in 2020, and I was told for 'safe keeping' These were already promised to my daughter, I insisted that they were listed under mums chattels in Grant.
I want to make a proposition to Brother, that my daughter from her inheritance( will) will give cash to their 2 children, a generous offer of double value of said rings by the valuer and auctioneer.  So that they can purchase something in memory of their grandparents!  I was outraged by her blatant behaviour and I need to have this ring to be reminded of my mum, and likewise my daughter  of her beloved grandmother.    There are many struggles ahead with 2 properties to empty and sell.   I wanted to see what these knowledgeable people on forum advise?

I am sorry for you losses. 

The bit I have highlighted seems strange to me - surely a couple, with two houses, have a large range of personal possessions, more than two rings to be remembered by. I wouldn't suggest buying anything! It is absolutely normal that when a beneficiary inherits a physical item its value is taken into account as part of their share.

rebel55

Oh I think `I will have to explain a bit more!!!   Their wills were written in 1996! And a smallish lump sum was to be given to grandchildren rest of estate to be split between my brother @ I.  I was as many other families close to my parents, my brother was closer to his wife's parents.  Jewellery always given to me, my son, daughter my mum's choice. She rather thought they wouldn't want her 'old pieces'   Mum  had advanced dementia, she would not have made a decision about giving her last 2 rings to Neices rationally, so sis-in-law took them anyway, no answers given to our requests So I understand legally that they belong to Estate.  I need legal person to advise on what I plan to do.

Flugelhorn

they are all part of the estate and should be valued and paid for if people want specific items - don't worry about the will being 1996, there are plenty of older ones executed 

you could identify items that grandchildren etc want, value them and then they can pay the estate for them. 

SeniorSam

If the  solicitors are also executors, have a word with them and they could insist that the rings are returned to be valued and dealt with accordingly.

MatyMoo

Many years ago my father was in a similar position where family members had taken things from the family home after the death that were subsequently found to be mentioned in the will.

He had to take them to court to get them returned to the estate. The upshot of that was a huge falling out that was never resolved and I (not even born when this happened) never got to meet aunts, uncles and cousins. 

p00hsticks

rebel55 said:

My sister in law removed jewellery(2rings?) from their home in 2020, and I was told for 'safe keeping' These were already promised to my daughter, I insisted that they were listed under mums chattels in Grant.

I don't quite follow the last bit - are you saying that your mother specifically left the rings to your daughter in the will ?

If so, then of course she should have them, althoguh the value of them still needs to be included in the estate when working out if any IHT is involved. 

But if she simply mentioned in passing whilst alive that she would like your daughter to have them, but failed to mention it in the will then that doesn't bear any legal weight - the executor has to follow what is written in the will (unless the beneficiaries agree to vary it).

As others have said, there are probably other possessions of theirs as well that you, your brother and the grandchildren would like as momentoes - the problem comes with deciding who has what , especially if more than one person wants the same thing. There have been previous threads on the subject on this board - I'll try to find them, but in the meantime, some of the best suggestions I can recall if you can deal it with it fairly amicably is getting together in the house and taking it in turns to choose items each (the value of which is agreed and included in the recipients inheritance) or, if you cannot bear to be in the same room as each other, each drawing up a list of things wanted and passing them to an independent third party to allocate.

Frogletina

One thing not brought up by anyone yet is the suggestion that money up to twice the value of the rings is given from the daughter's  inheritance.

What age is your daughter? Any inheritance given to minor children cannot be subject of a variation, although you could vary your own inheritance.

rebel55

My daughter is 40!, so not a problem with minors.  I find them  avaricious and grabbing, they the neices are not really interested in these rings, they are younger, no the whole problem is like the other poster, referred too, it has caused a permenant rift and frankly I could have done without this. If by posting this I can put off another family member from taking rings from a very confused old lady.   I shall also make sure it is all written down in my will

rebel55

SeniorSam said:

If the  solicitors are also executors, have a word with them and they could insist that the rings are returned to be valued and dealt with accordingly.

Yes the only way I can see this being resolved, thank you

Savvy_Sue

Hang on though, these rings potentially aren't part of the estate at all, because sister-in-law took possession of them well before mother died.

If SiL agrees that she was only keeping them safe, and that yes, they are part of the estate, you have a chance of retrieval, but if she starts to maintain that actually, your mother gave them to her, then even if they are listed in the will, they are gone.

By all means negotiate through solicitors if you must.