Builder issues.... Legal proceedings, looking for advice.

Rob_Mogs

twopenny said:

The main items you listed above as incorrect you need to show proof both from BC and other professionals called in to deal with it.

Because you are understandably strung out and furious you need to collect these papers/proofs with dates on when he was called to rectify, (did you put it in writing for him?) what he did towards that.

If not do you have the dates and times that he visited to correct?

"When building control last visited the builder left site claiming he had "had enough of this job" "

Was there witnesses? Did you get a final report from building control?

Then your bills for correcting and put the details on a summary sheet.

The whole shebang of written proof needs to be put in date order so that it should read like a story without dialogue and prove your point.

Thanks for the reply, yes everything is documented, builder and his staff even called building control to clarify things, then got it even more wrong.

I also paid him a visit one evening and discussed all the issues and recorded it all, (with his permission) so he has nothing he can hide or make up. 

No longer 'furious' as he walked off the job in October, we still have a long way to go but now just want what we are due from all the stress and issues. 

We were sticking to the law and giving him chances to rectify issues but they just kept getting worse, it got to the stage that I was having to inspect everything each time they left so we knew what to tell them to fix the following day. 

Doozergirl

Rob_Mogs said:

davemorton said:

Rob_Mogs said:

Thanks for the response, 
Why should the remaining £5000 be removed from the £12000? 

Original price £22000
Money paid £17000
average quotes to rectify defects and finish the job are an additional £12000
So £17k + £12k = £29k to get you to where you should have been with completed build.
£29k is £7k over what you should have paid, so claim should be for £7k. 

That makes sense, but.... 

Are we not entitled to claim for damages, disruption and breach of contract? 
Building control and other professionals seem to think we can as does trading standards website? 

In terms of damages we have a holiday let business on site, the builders left mountains of rubbish in full view of our guest accommodation, their vans and materials scattered everywhere etc.
They also damaged an upstairs room in the process of knocking through etc which we had to rectify ourselves. 
I did say I'd keep it short for the purposes of this post haha! 
You genuinely couldn't make up all the damage they caused whilst here. 

Oh and also as my partner just pointed out whilst reading this the floor remediation wasn't covered in the quotes as we had no option but to get this remedied by a flooring specialist so we could get our finished floor laid. 

There is also a clause in all quotes that the cost may rise dependant on what is found once an intrusive investigation is done as soon the quotes are only based on what is obvious. 

This is also mentioned by the surveyor, so we need "something in the pot" 
We just don't have the ability to pay for remediation and then claim an accurate figure.

You claim needs to include the cost of rectifying all the work, but only what is included the contract.  'Damages' is to put you back in the position you would have had nothing gone wrong - ie. paying £22k for the anticipated work.  Damage to your stuff and the cost of removing rubbish from site can be part of that.  

Talking about leaving their vans everywhere - you're building an extension, builders do have vans and they do get left everywhere (I'm presently enjoying vans everywhere from next door) and a mess is expected.  There's no reasonable claim for things that are unquantifiable.   

You sadly can't have an arbitrary extra amount in the pot for unforeseen.  If you want to wait and itemise everything as you pay for it yourself and claim retrospectively, okay, but otherwise you're claiming for a specific amount that is fairest out of three quotes if you want to be seen as reasonable.  Everything in that claim needs accounting for and you need to appear to be fair and beyond reproach.  

Where did you find this person and what did you do to check their work?  Building Control is a minimum standard.  Being constantly asked to redo things is not a good sign at all of basic competence.  

You will be incredibly lucky to come out financially unscathed from this.  The time to do all the homework is before they start, otherwise - this. 

Belenus

I wish you luck but be aware that winning in court won't mean that you automatically get the money awarded by the court.

Is the builder a sole trader or a limited company?

How confident are you that you can enforce any judgement?

Does he own a home or have other assets?

The small claims track in the County Court is relatively inexpensive but don't throw good money after bad.

Rob_Mogs

Doozergirl said:

Rob_Mogs said:

davemorton said:

Rob_Mogs said:

Thanks for the response, 
Why should the remaining £5000 be removed from the £12000? 

Original price £22000
Money paid £17000
average quotes to rectify defects and finish the job are an additional £12000
So £17k + £12k = £29k to get you to where you should have been with completed build.
£29k is £7k over what you should have paid, so claim should be for £7k. 

That makes sense, but.... 

Are we not entitled to claim for damages, disruption and breach of contract? 
Building control and other professionals seem to think we can as does trading standards website? 

In terms of damages we have a holiday let business on site, the builders left mountains of rubbish in full view of our guest accommodation, their vans and materials scattered everywhere etc.
They also damaged an upstairs room in the process of knocking through etc which we had to rectify ourselves. 
I did say I'd keep it short for the purposes of this post haha! 
You genuinely couldn't make up all the damage they caused whilst here. 

Oh and also as my partner just pointed out whilst reading this the floor remediation wasn't covered in the quotes as we had no option but to get this remedied by a flooring specialist so we could get our finished floor laid. 

There is also a clause in all quotes that the cost may rise dependant on what is found once an intrusive investigation is done as soon the quotes are only based on what is obvious. 

This is also mentioned by the surveyor, so we need "something in the pot" 
We just don't have the ability to pay for remediation and then claim an accurate figure.

You claim needs to include the cost of rectifying all the work, but only what is included the contract.  'Damages' is to put you back in the position you would have had nothing gone wrong - ie. paying £22k for the anticipated work.  Damage to your stuff and the cost of removing rubbish from site can be part of that.  

Talking about leaving their vans everywhere - you're building an extension, builders do have vans and they do get left everywhere (I'm presently enjoying vans everywhere from next door) and a mess is expected.  There's no reasonable claim for things that are unquantifiable.   

You sadly can't have an arbitrary extra amount in the pot for unforeseen.  If you want to wait and itemise everything as you pay for it yourself and claim retrospectively, okay, but otherwise you're claiming for a specific amount that is fairest out of three quotes if you want to be seen as reasonable.  Everything in that claim needs accounting for and you need to appear to be fair and beyond reproach.  

Where did you find this person and what did you do to check their work?  Building Control is a minimum standard.  Being constantly asked to redo things is not a good sign at all of basic competence.  

You will be incredibly lucky to come out financially unscathed from this.  The time to do all the homework is before they start, otherwise - this. 

Again thanks for the info, it's all incredibly helpful and valuable info, but there is literally no way on earth we can afford to pay out up front and then claim back, it's taken 5 years to get to where we are now and we've had to borrow what we would call a fairly significant amount just to make it habitable since they abandoned site.
 In light of this  we need to claim and then fix, but what happens of during remediation works something more sinister is found and the price doubles?

All homework was done, we knew the guy, we've hired machinery from the guy numerous times, he was also recommend by a family friend, all previous works visible on his Facebook page too. 

One of the lads who works for him made comments afterward that usually he does all the groundworks and then pays actual trades to do all other work, this time he appears to have had a go himself, unbeknown to us at the time, none of the lads that were onsite here have any building experience aside from labouring. 

Rob_Mogs

Belenus said:

I wish you luck but be aware that winning in court won't mean that you automatically get the money awarded by the court.

Is the builder a sole trader or a limited company?

How confident are you that you can enforce any judgement?

Does he own a home or have other assets?

The small claims track in the County Court is relatively inexpensive but don't throw good money after bad.

Sole trader / partnership as it's himself and his son, letter from his solicitor had only his name on.

He owns plenty of agricultural and civil machinery and owns his own home.

Small claims court is the route we plan to take but no idea which way to turn now after that solicitors letter turned up, especially after it saying they are looking to claim the remaining £5000!

So far as actually enforcing any judgement, who knows, we had a family photoshoot 18months ago who then didn't provide us with anything other than the proof photos, they've ignored everything which seems to be working for them as we've had nothing back at all, and that was only for £75.

DB1904

Rob_Mogs said:

davemorton said:

Rob_Mogs said:

Thanks for the response, 
Why should the remaining £5000 be removed from the £12000? 

Original price £22000
Money paid £17000
average quotes to rectify defects and finish the job are an additional £12000
So £17k + £12k = £29k to get you to where you should have been with completed build.
£29k is £7k over what you should have paid, so claim should be for £7k. 

That makes sense, but.... 

Are we not entitled to claim for damages, disruption and breach of contract? 
Building control and other professionals seem to think we can as does trading standards website? 

In terms of damages we have a holiday let business on site, the builders left mountains of rubbish in full view of our guest accommodation, their vans and materials scattered everywhere etc.
They also damaged an upstairs room in the process of knocking through etc which we had to rectify ourselves. 
I did say I'd keep it short for the purposes of this post haha! 
You genuinely couldn't make up all the damage they caused whilst here. 

Oh and also as my partner just pointed out whilst reading this the floor remediation wasn't covered in the quotes as we had no option but to get this remedied by a flooring specialist so we could get our finished floor laid. 

There is also a clause in all quotes that the cost may rise dependant on what is found once an intrusive investigation is done as soon the quotes are only based on what is obvious. 

This is also mentioned by the surveyor, so we need "something in the pot" 
We just don't have the ability to pay for remediation and then claim an accurate figure.

How much did you need to reduce your prices by or refund because of this?

Doozergirl

If something really bad turns up, I guess you go again and sue again, but that's uncharted territory for me.  

How big is this extension?  How much have building control signed off?    Is there really that much that can be wrong other than that which people have seen?  Building control usually take photos of progress - can you ask them for those? 

Rob_Mogs

DB1904 said:

Rob_Mogs said:

davemorton said:

Rob_Mogs said:

Thanks for the response, 
Why should the remaining £5000 be removed from the £12000? 

Original price £22000
Money paid £17000
average quotes to rectify defects and finish the job are an additional £12000
So £17k + £12k = £29k to get you to where you should have been with completed build.
£29k is £7k over what you should have paid, so claim should be for £7k. 

That makes sense, but.... 

Are we not entitled to claim for damages, disruption and breach of contract? 
Building control and other professionals seem to think we can as does trading standards website? 

In terms of damages we have a holiday let business on site, the builders left mountains of rubbish in full view of our guest accommodation, their vans and materials scattered everywhere etc.
They also damaged an upstairs room in the process of knocking through etc which we had to rectify ourselves. 
I did say I'd keep it short for the purposes of this post haha! 
You genuinely couldn't make up all the damage they caused whilst here. 

Oh and also as my partner just pointed out whilst reading this the floor remediation wasn't covered in the quotes as we had no option but to get this remedied by a flooring specialist so we could get our finished floor laid. 

There is also a clause in all quotes that the cost may rise dependant on what is found once an intrusive investigation is done as soon the quotes are only based on what is obvious. 

This is also mentioned by the surveyor, so we need "something in the pot" 
We just don't have the ability to pay for remediation and then claim an accurate figure.

How much did you need to reduce your prices by or refund because of this?

Nothing as of yet, most were very understanding, however out of 5 sets of guests that book with us a few times a year that were here during the 'saga', only one has re-booked for this year, these particular 5 sets of guests are normally asking us if we know when our lambs are due etc so they can book accordingly, but aside from one not a single question or booking, may just be coincidence, but I doubt it. 

As per a comment above, mess and rubbish is to be expected, but an actual location and site was provided to them for materials, vans and waste, and was agreed to be here as fenced off by them with the green windbreak mesh so as to hide it all, none of that happened, plus the "rubbish" I mentioned was things like drinks cans and chocolate wrappers which were just thrown to the wind. 
Again all of this has been photographed and brought up with them too. 

Rob_Mogs

Doozergirl said:

If something really bad turns up, I guess you go again and sue again, but that's uncharted territory for me.  

How big is this extension?  How much have building control signed off?    Is there really that much that can be wrong other than that which people have seen?  Building control usually take photos of progress - can you ask them for those? 

Hello!, Here's the fun bit, it's only 30sq MTR, and another 30sq MTR of existing building that needed re-screeding and then walls and ceilings boarded over, the walls are about 250mm out of plumb from bottom to top on a 7ft height ceiling. 

Building control have so far signed none of it off. 
Building control chap has been really good in all honesty, he's been popping by giving us advice on what to do so we can do a lot of it ourselves, I'm an engineer by trade but time isn't on my side when it comes to work Vs home life balance. 

Doozergirl

Rob_Mogs said:

DB1904 said:

Rob_Mogs said:

davemorton said:

Rob_Mogs said:

Thanks for the response, 
Why should the remaining £5000 be removed from the £12000? 

Original price £22000
Money paid £17000
average quotes to rectify defects and finish the job are an additional £12000
So £17k + £12k = £29k to get you to where you should have been with completed build.
£29k is £7k over what you should have paid, so claim should be for £7k. 

That makes sense, but.... 

Are we not entitled to claim for damages, disruption and breach of contract? 
Building control and other professionals seem to think we can as does trading standards website? 

In terms of damages we have a holiday let business on site, the builders left mountains of rubbish in full view of our guest accommodation, their vans and materials scattered everywhere etc.
They also damaged an upstairs room in the process of knocking through etc which we had to rectify ourselves. 
I did say I'd keep it short for the purposes of this post haha! 
You genuinely couldn't make up all the damage they caused whilst here. 

Oh and also as my partner just pointed out whilst reading this the floor remediation wasn't covered in the quotes as we had no option but to get this remedied by a flooring specialist so we could get our finished floor laid. 

There is also a clause in all quotes that the cost may rise dependant on what is found once an intrusive investigation is done as soon the quotes are only based on what is obvious. 

This is also mentioned by the surveyor, so we need "something in the pot" 
We just don't have the ability to pay for remediation and then claim an accurate figure.

How much did you need to reduce your prices by or refund because of this?

Nothing as of yet, most were very understanding, however out of 5 sets of guests that book with us a few times a year that were here during the 'saga', only one has re-booked for this year, these particular 5 sets of guests are normally asking us if we know when our lambs are due etc so they can book accordingly, but aside from one not a single question or booking, may just be coincidence, but I doubt it. 

As per a comment above, mess and rubbish is to be expected, but an actual location and site was provided to them for materials, vans and waste, and was agreed to be here as fenced off by them with the green windbreak mesh so as to hide it all, none of that happened, plus the "rubbish" I mentioned was things like drinks cans and chocolate wrappers which were just thrown to the wind. 
Again all of this has been photographed and brought up with them too. 

Contact those previous guests.  Call it marketing.  Just because they usually contact you does not mean that you should not be contacting them, you positively should.  It's what any hotel does, except your message can be more personal.