Deed Charge Removal at Land Registry

Moonshooter

Hi there, grateful if anyone can help with this one.

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry against the title deed. Both died many years ago (grandfather 2006 and step-grandmother 2012), without a will or any form of probate. As there was no estate of any value (i owned the only asset), this was deemed the right approach at the time, very foolish in retrospect. Anyway, wind forward many years (2022) and i want to rebuild the property but thought it prudent to check any issues with the Land Registry. This is when removing the charge from the register become a problem. Passing this to a solicitor for help has proven to be a real education, with the process of applying for probate for my grandfather the first piece of advice (the original property owner). This, after many months, has proven not possible (after months of deliberation with the Probate service) as he was succeeded by my step-grandmother. Great advice! As she also died without a will or executor, has made a seemingly straightforward process seemingly impossible. The latest advice is to find out if the step-grandmother had any children (she was very cagey about her past and had disowned her family, since remarrying), get them to apply for probate and they can get the charge removed. I can now see why people give up on these things, as i have tried two solicitors to date with equally negative answers. Can i take this issue to a court or am i stuck?

canaldumidi

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

So the property was transferred into your name and registered in your name with the Land Registry, and your grandparents (or grandfather?) registered a charge against the property for the debt you took on, based on a Deed specifying you would pay them/him £X per month, or £Y,000 in total, or whatever?

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would therefore be for your grandparents to remove the Charge once you'd paid off the full debt- just as a bank would once a mortgage was paid o

As they/he has died, the debt (if any remains) transfers to his Beneficiaries. "he was succeeded by my step-grandmother." I assume by the rules of intestacy if he had no will? Similarly if she died intestate, then the rules of intestacy again apply, and the debt, and hence also the right to remove the charge, transfers to her Beneficiaries.

So as you have found, there are 3 issues:

1. locating the appropriate beneficiaries under the rules of intestacy  and

2. obtaining probate for the various deceaseds so that the current surviving beneficiaries can take the appropriate action

3. pursuading them to do so

Apologies for broadly repeating your post- I was getting my head round the situation!

For 1) above, you could employ a search agent/private detective. Have you actually established that she died intestate? I assume you've checked the Probate Register?

If all involved died intestate, anyone (ie you) can apply to the Probate Office to act as Administrator. Of course that involves more than just dealing with the Charge.......

As for your final question, I'm afraid I can't answer. I guess you are asking if a court can order the removal of the Charge (rather than asking the court to authorise the various Probates), but I'm surprised neither solicitor has answered that.

Do you have legal cover alongside your buildings insurance? Or provided by your employer? Or union?

Moonshooter

Many thanks for reply, genuinely appreciated.

Yes, reviewed the probate with the solicitor and both died without will and with no probate process undertaken. I had tried applying for probate for my grandfather and after a year or so, the answer from the probate service was that probate would have to be applied for by the bloodline of my step-grandmother, as she would have been the beneficiary of my grandfathers estate. This response, after 12 months of discussion with the probate service was particularly disappointing, as the solicitor was adamant that I could simply apply for letters of administration for my grandfather and then apply to Land Registry to 'simply remove the charge'. More money wasted at this point. I know that my step-grandmother had a daughter but never really spoke much about her own family, as she very much left that behind her shortly after re-marriage (early 1970s). The thought of searching for descendants and asking them to apply for probate for a 'mother' they hardly knew seems like an impossible task to be honest but if that is the only way forward, will look into it.

Re your last point, i have asked the last solicitor (and a new one i'm thinking about instructing) about taking this to court, with the response from both that Probate is the only way forward. I have disputed this though, as I feel I have the evidence to achieve a positive outcome. ie Proof of ownership though Land Registry documentation, proof of monthly payment through bank statements and the fact that this has not been challenged by anyone, since both grandparents passed away, so last ten years as a minimum.

user1977

At the end of the day, courts can order charges be removed - but they will need to be persuaded that it's proper for them to do so, and that any identifiable chargeholder isn't being prejudiced. It can certainly be done where the chargeholder simply cannot be traced or is (unreasonably) refusing to remove a charge (e.g. where it can be shown the relevant debt has been repaid).

wilfred30

canaldumidi said:

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would probably be useful to have an answer to this question.

Moonshooter

wilfred30 said:

canaldumidi said:

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would probably be useful to have an answer to this question.

Hi there, thanks for the reply, genuinely touched that good people have responded.

The difficulty here is that this is all family related (trust, helping out those in need etc) and here starts the problem. Even in hindsight, not sure i would have done much very different... This is how it started;

1. Grandparents on hard times, so ask grandson (me) to help them out.
2. In basic terms, this equates to 'pay us some money each month and the house is yours when we pass over'. I agreed an amount and paid this for many years.
3. Grandson (me) is persuaded to do this and this is subsequently administered by local solicitor, with charge noted on the deeds at Land Registry.
4. The amount is simply annotated on the LR deed as 'to secure the monies therein mentioned'.
5. Wind forward many years, where both are now comfortable, as grandson has helped them out in a variety of ways, as most would do. Grandparents then state no need to keep paying (never an agreed amount from recollection and review of conveyancing document but have asked Land Registry to check the charge deed). Nevertheless, kept bank statements of monthly transactions.
6. As I had little to do with funerals etc when both passed on, thought little of the consequences of no executors or wills. Regretting this bit now of course. The grandmother spent last few years in local council accommodation, and house was left empty. The bottom line here, is that as there was nothing of any value (less the house, which i legally owned), there was nothing to pass down, hence no desire to make a seemingly easy process complicated. 
7. 10 years later and as i consider major improvements and contemplate spending money on something that could be difficult to sell-on, focussing on the deed charge. 

Hopefully, this helps but appreciate that it probably sounds even more complicated. A few regrets here unfortunately and not something i want to leave to my family to end up saddled with.

canaldumidi

Moonshooter said:

wilfred30 said:

canaldumidi said:

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would probably be useful to have an answer to this question.

.....
3. Grandson (me) is persuaded to do this and this is subsequently administered by local solicitor, with charge noted on the deeds Title at Land Registry.
4. The amount is simply annotated on the LR deed Title as 'to secure the monies therein mentioned'. (ie on a separate Deed)
5. Wind forward many years, where both are now comfortable, as grandson has helped them out in a variety of ways, as most would do. Grandparents then state no need to keep paying (never an agreed amount from recollection and review of conveyancing document but have asked Land Registry to check the charge deed). Nevertheless, kept bank statements of monthly transactions. LR is unlikely to have the Deed, just as they don't store mortgage agreements between banks and borrowers.

Since this was set upby a solicitor, I am almost certain there must have been a document.probably a Deed, specifying the amount of the loand the terms for repayment. The LR is unlikely to have this. You may need to track it down.

SDLT_Geek

canaldumidi said:

Moonshooter said:

wilfred30 said:

canaldumidi said:

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would probably be useful to have an answer to this question.

.....
3. Grandson (me) is persuaded to do this and this is subsequently administered by local solicitor, with charge noted on the deeds Title at Land Registry.
4. The amount is simply annotated on the LR deed Title as 'to secure the monies therein mentioned'. (ie on a separate Deed)
5. Wind forward many years, where both are now comfortable, as grandson has helped them out in a variety of ways, as most would do. Grandparents then state no need to keep paying (never an agreed amount from recollection and review of conveyancing document but have asked Land Registry to check the charge deed). Nevertheless, kept bank statements of monthly transactions. LR is unlikely to have the Deed, just as they don't store mortgage agreements between banks and borrowers.

Since this was set upby a solicitor, I am almost certain there must have been a document.probably a Deed, specifying the amount of the loand the terms for repayment. The LR is unlikely to have this. You may need to track it down.

A good start would be the terms of the transfer from grandparents to OP.  This might well state an agreed price and perhaps even specify how much was left outstanding.  The Land Registry should have a copy of that.

nicmyles

One other thought: it might be worth speaking to a mortgage broker to see how much of a problem this is likely to be for a prospective buyer attempting to mortgage the property.

On the face of it, it does seem like it would be a problem, but on the other hand, if you're up front about it, you will be able to point out that in reality it isn't: the charge is irrelevant because the beneficiaries of it have died, and you could potentially offer an insurance policy to cover any costs they might accrue as a result of the charge (which will be zero). 

Might be worth looking into this first, because if the answer is "well, it's obviously not ideal but there are ways and means to overcome it", then having those conversations with a buyer might actually be easier than trying to regularise your step-grandmother's probate.

wilfred30

Moonshooter said:

wilfred30 said:

canaldumidi said:

I bought my grandparents property in the late 1980s (to help them out in their retirement), with the agreement to pay them a set amount monthly. This was carried out at the local solicitors, with a subsequent charge annotated at the Land Registry S

Have you fully repaid the amount specified in the Deed? Is the debt now fully satisfied?

It would probably be useful to have an answer to this question.

Hi there, thanks for the reply, genuinely touched that good people have responded.

The difficulty here is that this is all family related (trust, helping out those in need etc) and here starts the problem. Even in hindsight, not sure i would have done much very different... This is how it started;

1. Grandparents on hard times, so ask grandson (me) to help them out.
2. In basic terms, this equates to 'pay us some money each month and the house is yours when we pass over'. I agreed an amount and paid this for many years.
3. Grandson (me) is persuaded to do this and this is subsequently administered by local solicitor, with charge noted on the deeds at Land Registry.
4. The amount is simply annotated on the LR deed as 'to secure the monies therein mentioned'.
5. Wind forward many years, where both are now comfortable, as grandson has helped them out in a variety of ways, as most would do. Grandparents then state no need to keep paying (never an agreed amount from recollection and review of conveyancing document but have asked Land Registry to check the charge deed). Nevertheless, kept bank statements of monthly transactions.
6. As I had little to do with funerals etc when both passed on, thought little of the consequences of no executors or wills. Regretting this bit now of course. The grandmother spent last few years in local council accommodation, and house was left empty. The bottom line here, is that as there was nothing of any value (less the house, which i legally owned), there was nothing to pass down, hence no desire to make a seemingly easy process complicated. 
7. 10 years later and as i consider major improvements and contemplate spending money on something that could be difficult to sell-on, focussing on the deed charge. 

Hopefully, this helps but appreciate that it probably sounds even more complicated. A few regrets here unfortunately and not something i want to leave to my family to end up saddled with.

With respect, as far as I can see, you still haven't answered the question of whether you have fully paid the amount for the house as stated in the Charge or not.

Moonshooter

Hi there, been waiting for clarification from the Land Registry, re the Charge on the deed (which i still don't have). What i know is this; i paid monthly for many years and have the proof (bank statements), whereby the amount annotated in the copy i have of the Legal Charge states that this will complete in 12 years (started in 1990, therefore finish in 2002). Toward the latter part of 1990s, letter written to me (also have copy) by grandfather stating that 'enough has been paid', no requirement to keep paying. Mistake here, of course, is not going through to the finish and formally notifying Land Registry. The issue is that this is difficult given that my grandparents were still alive at that point, so didn't pursue or thought of it as a problem. That said, with Land Registry confirmation and 'data-pack' i am now able to provide, should go somewhere to proving my case?