3rd Party dragging their heels

Tracyw73

Hi this is going to be a little long winded so I apologise in advance… so on 10/11/2021 my other half was in a car accident, he was hit from behind, other driver instantly admitted it was his fault and they swapped details, my OH rang his insurance and notified them & they also advised him to put in a claim for injuries (he did attend a&e and had time off work mainly as he’s a painter & decorator and his employer advised him to take a few days off before returning to site he’s also self employed so loss of wages) 
so fast forward to 10 days later they came & picked his car up it wasn’t destroyed & was still drivable but wasn’t secure due to damage to boot & bumper, he got a courtesy car same day, then the following day he heard from garage to say due to cost of repair/re spray & labour they were wiring the car off. 

He got an email from the company dealing with his claim saying they’d update as & when.. 
then on 10th December he got a call from the solicitors saying they’d admitted liability for his injuries &  he needed to go for a medical regarding his injuries claim, This was arranged for the following day, 
In the meantime Enterprise who he got the courtesy car from have rang/emailed 4 times asking when they can have the car back, he told them he’s still waiting so they said they’d contact them & hurry them along (twice they said this still nothing)… 
Between Christmas & New year he contacted the company dealing with it on behalf of his insurance (RAC) and asked for an update, they said they’ve received nothing regarding the 3rd party accepting liability and would try to contact them, he then received an email saying due to high call volumes they hadn’t reached the 3rd party insurance, and would continue to try, last week (6/1/2022) he received a further email saying that 3rd party still haven’t makes contact and if their latest correspondence goes unanswered they will hand it back to his insurance (RAC) to deal with!
so my questions are
1) how can 3rd party accept responsibility for his injuries but not for the damage to the car? Makes no sense…
2) can we refuse to hand the courtesy car back to Enterprise until we get sorted? They told us we have the car until an offer is made IF he accepts the 1st offer made we have 7days to return the courtesy car, if he accepts the 2nd offer we only have 3 days to return car. 

3) if it’s handed back to his insurance what will likely happen? 

I know we have a courtesy car so he’s still able to work the only thing is it’s a brand new car (70 plate Ford Focus) as I mentioned earlier he’s a painter & decorator so is dubious of putting all his work tools in the and risking getting paint in the boot etc and then ending up with a bill for damages. 

Sorry for the long essay hope someone can help x 

Sandtree

Tracyw73 said:

1) how can 3rd party accept responsibility for his injuries but not for the damage to the car? Makes no sense…
2) can we refuse to hand the courtesy car back to Enterprise until we get sorted? They told us we have the car until an offer is made IF he accepts the 1st offer made we have 7days to return the courtesy car, if he accepts the 2nd offer we only have 3 days to return car. 

3) if it’s handed back to his insurance what will likely happen? 

I know we have a courtesy car so he’s still able to work the only thing is it’s a brand new car (70 plate Ford Focus) as I mentioned earlier he’s a painter & decorator so is dubious of putting all his work tools in the and risking getting paint in the boot etc and then ending up with a bill for damages. 

Sorry for the long essay hope someone can help x 

So by the sounds of it you are dealing with an accident management company (AMC) and have credit hire rather than a courtesy car.

1) It doesnt make sense but then the AMC are simply saying that they havent been able to make contact not that they are denying liability.

2) Its not a courtesy car, its a hire car being provided to you on credit.. read the paperwork you signed and you'll see that it wasnt just vehicle handover document. You could refuse to give the car back but then you become personally liable for the hire charges and the rates charged under a credit hire agreement are significantly higher than normal hire in off peak season

3) Assuming he has comp insurance they will hopefully be able to take the engineers report already produced and make a total loss settlement offer net of the excess. The excess then just forms another part of his uninsured losses to be recovered along with the injury and loss of earnings

PS. have to be careful with hiring a car at over £50 a day and subsequently saying you were unable to continue to work because of having such a nice hire car

Tracyw73

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

also I NEVER said he can’t work cos the car is too nice, I said he’s lucky to have the car so he can CONTINUE to work BUT  he’s dubious about putting his tools in the car and getting paint on the inside then being charged for this which is why we’re eager to get this sorted and hand the car back I never mentioned anything about claiming that he couldn’t work… the only time I mentioned anything about work was when I said his employer asked that he not return to site for a few days after the incident (so because he’s self employed his solicitor added those days on to his injuries claim)

caprikid1

Tracyw73 said:

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

also I NEVER said he can’t work cos the car is too nice, I said he’s lucky to have the car so he can CONTINUE to work BUT  he’s dubious about putting his tools in the car and getting paint on the inside then being charged for this which is why we’re eager to get this sorted and hand the car back I never mentioned anything about claiming that he couldn’t work… the only time I mentioned anything about work was when I said his employer asked that he not return to site for a few days after the incident (so because he’s self employed his solicitor added those days on to his injuries claim)

Unless I missed something, at no point have you confirmed he was actually injured ?

Sandtree

Tracyw73 said:

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

Clearly I've not seen the paperwork but I've never heard of a policy that will provide a courtesy car when you arent actually claiming off your own policy for the damages/total loss. 

Traditionally courtesy cars were provided by the garage for free and the cost was covered by the labour rate your insurer agreed to pay (generally circa £1/hr more than if no car is to be provided). Insurers did introduce "enhanced courtesy cars" which were actually hire cars a while back which gave more certainty of a vehicle and some offered bigger vehicles than the typical garage class A/B vehicle but still with these you needed to be claiming off your policy for it to come into effect... in theory if you didnt have to you could just claim there had been an accident, that the TP is dealing with the repairs privately and just get a free hire car for a couple of weeks.

Looking at the RAC website, their offering states you get the car for up to 14 or 28 days, depending on the option selected. Their terms have nothing about having to hand the hire car back on total loss payment or offer (only if your car is repaired or someone else offers you hire or a courtesy car) and so their comments about returning it within 7 days is again in line with normal credit hire approach and not a car provided under the policy terms. If they are saying its provided under the policy and not credit hire then ask them to point to the clause in your policy which says you need to hand it back before the end of the 14/28 day period.

Tracyw73

Caprikid1 said 
Unless I missed something, at no point have you confirmed he was actually injured ?

yes he was injured I didn’t specify any injuries due to the fact I’m not actually asking anything regarding that claim (which as I stated is already in progress. 

Tracyw73

Sandtree said:

Tracyw73 said:

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

Clearly I've not seen the paperwork but I've never heard of a policy that will provide a courtesy car when you arent actually claiming off your own policy for the damages/total loss. 

Traditionally courtesy cars were provided by the garage for free and the cost was covered by the labour rate your insurer agreed to pay (generally circa £1/hr more than if no car is to be provided). Insurers did introduce "enhanced courtesy cars" which were actually hire cars a while back which gave more certainty of a vehicle and some offered bigger vehicles than the typical garage class A/B vehicle but still with these you needed to be claiming off your policy for it to come into effect... in theory if you didnt have to you could just claim there had been an accident, that the TP is dealing with the repairs privately and just get a free hire car for a couple of weeks.

Looking at the RAC website, their offering states you get the car for up to 14 or 28 days, depending on the option selected. Their terms have nothing about having to hand the hire car back on total loss payment or offer (only if your car is repaired or someone else offers you hire or a courtesy car) and so their comments about returning it within 7 days is again in line with normal credit hire approach and not a car provided under the policy terms. If they are saying its provided under the policy and not credit hire then ask them to point to the clause in your policy which says you need to hand it back before the end of the 14/28 day period.

Jeez this is hard work lol it’s worse than dealing with the bloody insurance company…. 3rd party are paying the hire of the car, again as stated to @caprikid1 this isn’t my issue…. My issue is simply… how can 3rd party admit responsibility for injuries but then fail to have yet accepted responsibility for damage to car?? 

I apologise for giving all the details and  making things more complicated then they actually are
1) we have no issues with the courtesy car/hire car ,( whichever it may be) other than the small fact my OH is cautious to put his work materials (paint/brushes/rollers/thinners etc) in the car boot in case these damage the interior, as trust me removing paint from cars is NOT a simple task…. 

2) My OH has already had his medical (he chose to do this face-face rather then on a zoom call so as not to appear to be faking injury) we have confirmation this has been accepted and all his medical records from A&E & his physio have also been accepted. 

His solicitor is updating him on this via email/phone and there seems to be no issues. 

3) other than me copying & pasting all the paperwork (which I’m clearly not going to do for obvious reasons) I can’t explain it any simpler/easier then I already have…. 

The ONLY question I had was…. Is it even possible for 3rd party to accept liability for injury but not damage to vehicle? 🤷‍♀️

jimbo6977

Tracyw73 said:

Sandtree said:

Tracyw73 said:

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

Clearly I've not seen the paperwork but I've never heard of a policy that will provide a courtesy car when you arent actually claiming off your own policy for the damages/total loss. 

Traditionally courtesy cars were provided by the garage for free and the cost was covered by the labour rate your insurer agreed to pay (generally circa £1/hr more than if no car is to be provided). Insurers did introduce "enhanced courtesy cars" which were actually hire cars a while back which gave more certainty of a vehicle and some offered bigger vehicles than the typical garage class A/B vehicle but still with these you needed to be claiming off your policy for it to come into effect... in theory if you didnt have to you could just claim there had been an accident, that the TP is dealing with the repairs privately and just get a free hire car for a couple of weeks.

Looking at the RAC website, their offering states you get the car for up to 14 or 28 days, depending on the option selected. Their terms have nothing about having to hand the hire car back on total loss payment or offer (only if your car is repaired or someone else offers you hire or a courtesy car) and so their comments about returning it within 7 days is again in line with normal credit hire approach and not a car provided under the policy terms. If they are saying its provided under the policy and not credit hire then ask them to point to the clause in your policy which says you need to hand it back before the end of the 14/28 day period.

Jeez this is hard work lol it’s worse than dealing with the bloody insurance company…. 3rd party are paying the hire of the car, again as stated to @caprikid1 this isn’t my issue…. My issue is simply… how can 3rd party admit responsibility for injuries but then fail to have yet accepted responsibility for damage to car?? 

I apologise for giving all the details and  making things more complicated then they actually are
1) we have no issues with the courtesy car/hire car ,( whichever it may be) other than the small fact my OH is cautious to put his work materials (paint/brushes/rollers/thinners etc) in the car boot in case these damage the interior, as trust me removing paint from cars is NOT a simple task…. 

2) My OH has already had his medical (he chose to do this face-face rather then on a zoom call so as not to appear to be faking injury) we have confirmation this has been accepted and all his medical records from A&E & his physio have also been accepted. 

His solicitor is updating him on this via email/phone and there seems to be no issues. 

3) other than me copying & pasting all the paperwork (which I’m clearly not going to do for obvious reasons) I can’t explain it any simpler/easier then I already have…. 

The ONLY question I had was…. Is it even possible for 3rd party to accept liability for injury but not damage to vehicle? 🤷‍♀️

In short yes. 

For instance if there was pre-existing damage to the vehicle that was nothing to do with the current claim.

It's also worth considering that the (probably) contracted-out medical examiners might be less busy than the (probably) in-house engineering staff at the insurer who will be assessing / approving the vehicle damage. So one side could be expedited while the other aspect could be delayed. 

Sandtree

Tracyw73 said:

Sandtree said:

Tracyw73 said:

Hi SANDTREE

Its  100% a courtesy car not a hire car (just read through all the paperwork and we also rang & clarified this with Enterprise whom the car is from & RAC with whom he’s insured)  He pays extra on his insurance for the option of a courtesy car should the need arise (which obviously it has) 

Clearly I've not seen the paperwork but I've never heard of a policy that will provide a courtesy car when you arent actually claiming off your own policy for the damages/total loss. 

Traditionally courtesy cars were provided by the garage for free and the cost was covered by the labour rate your insurer agreed to pay (generally circa £1/hr more than if no car is to be provided). Insurers did introduce "enhanced courtesy cars" which were actually hire cars a while back which gave more certainty of a vehicle and some offered bigger vehicles than the typical garage class A/B vehicle but still with these you needed to be claiming off your policy for it to come into effect... in theory if you didnt have to you could just claim there had been an accident, that the TP is dealing with the repairs privately and just get a free hire car for a couple of weeks.

Looking at the RAC website, their offering states you get the car for up to 14 or 28 days, depending on the option selected. Their terms have nothing about having to hand the hire car back on total loss payment or offer (only if your car is repaired or someone else offers you hire or a courtesy car) and so their comments about returning it within 7 days is again in line with normal credit hire approach and not a car provided under the policy terms. If they are saying its provided under the policy and not credit hire then ask them to point to the clause in your policy which says you need to hand it back before the end of the 14/28 day period.

Jeez this is hard work lol it’s worse than dealing with the bloody insurance company…. 3rd party are paying the hire of the car, again as stated to @caprikid1 this isn’t my issue…. My issue is simply… how can 3rd party admit responsibility for injuries but then fail to have yet accepted responsibility for damage to car?? 

I apologise for giving all the details and  making things more complicated then they actually are
1) we have no issues with the courtesy car/hire car ,( whichever it may be) other than the small fact my OH is cautious to put his work materials (paint/brushes/rollers/thinners etc) in the car boot in case these damage the interior, as trust me removing paint from cars is NOT a simple task…. 

2) My OH has already had his medical (he chose to do this face-face rather then on a zoom call so as not to appear to be faking injury) we have confirmation this has been accepted and all his medical records from A&E & his physio have also been accepted. 

His solicitor is updating him on this via email/phone and there seems to be no issues. 

3) other than me copying & pasting all the paperwork (which I’m clearly not going to do for obvious reasons) I can’t explain it any simpler/easier then I already have…. 

The ONLY question I had was…. Is it even possible for 3rd party to accept liability for injury but not damage to vehicle? 🤷‍♀️

There is always a certain amount of semantics involved in these things... if they admit hitting your vehicle and causing injury there is no realistic way that there can be a denial of liability for causing damage to the vehicle. It could however be that there was pre-existing damage to the vehicle to the extent that the vehicle was only worth scrap before the accident, is still only worth scrap now and therefore you have sustained no loss in relation to the vehicle... that could be argued as "no liability" but wouldnt be my way of phrasing it. 

You can always get a lesser version of the above where its compounded damage and that takes some work to calculate the difference as a result of the latest incident.

Tracyw73 said:

Between Christmas & New year he contacted the company dealing with it on behalf of his insurance (RAC) and asked for an update, they said they’ve received nothing regarding the 3rd party accepting liability and would try to contact them, he then received an email saying due to high call volumes they hadn’t reached the 3rd party insurance, and would continue to try, last week

Unfortunately motor claims often include many different parties and many people are very unsure who everyone is... there are a ton of threads on here about people calling what they thought was their insurer only to actually speak to some accident management firm who doesnt correct the person as to who they are speaking to.

The above statement is what has lead me to believe that you are dealing with neither your insurers (RAC is just a white label of Budget who are a broker rather than insurer too) nor the third party insurer. It also states that the position on liability is simply unknown not disputed.

You now say the third party are paying for the hire car and not your insurers as you originally said and therefore clearly they have accepted liability for the vehicle damage as a TPI wont agree to pay for hire unless they accept they are responsible for the damage (or strongly believe they will be)

Tracyw73

Thank you!! I’ve looked at the paperwork & there’s plenty of it… it states we can have the car for up to 90 days then it will be reassessed (obviously if we have no offer of payment to buy a new car this would be an issue) This takes us to 24/02/2022 so hopefully we will have something by then 🤞

My OH car had no issues before the accident, this was confirmed by the garage dealing with it, it just simply wasn’t economical to do the repairs for what it would cost vs what the cars worth. 

Im sorry for the parts I didht explain in detail/properly and thank you for your replies/explanations, as you can probably tell I’ve never been in this situation before, I have been hit from behind (car an absolute write off I rolled into a ditch & all windows were shattered amongst other damage, I had a fractured collar bone & several cuts & bruises) BUT unfortunately the van that hit me (plates were taken from another driver) was found to be fake plates and police were unable to trace the vehicle or where it went after the incident, so I had to take a hit on my insurance and no claims (not a happy bunny!) 

But thank you for clarifying points to me and I guess wel just wait and see what/when they offer. 

Jenni_D

Whose paperwork? That of your OH's insurer or that of the 3rd party insurer (TPI)? Which paperwork mentions 90 days limit for the car? (I would assume it is that of your OH's insurer).

If the TPI are paying for the hire/courtesy car your OH is currently driving then the 90 days limit is irrelevant (if my assumption is correct).

But I'm not even sure what the real situation is ... you've mentioned your OH's vehicle and the TPI accepting the injury claim, and in the next breath mentioned YOU being hit from behind by an unidentified 3rd party and having to claim off your own insurance! 🤷‍♀️