PCN Bus Lane violation for LD / disabled person in care

RobinHill

My partner's daughter is LD / severely autistic, and lives in supported accommodation with 2-1 24/7 care. She has an open policy Motability vehicle that any number of carers are able to drive for her. She has received a Penalty Charge Notice for a bus lane violation. We are struggling to find out who was driving the vehicle, and the daughter does not have the capacity to respond. Any advice before the appointee replies on her behalf?

Spies

She will most likely need to pay the PCN if you don't know who was driving.

RobinHill

Spies: You would have to think so otherwise it may well be open to abuse ie. free rein to commit violations. However this seems discriminatory as she has no capacity as the registered keeper to respond informing who the driver was at the time.

elsien

If you know when the incident occurred and there are two people supporting her at any one time, then the rota will show who was on shift at the time. Surely the relevant provider manager could ask the two which one of them it was? 

However as this is a bus lane violation rather than a private parking ticket, I’m wondering if you’d get a better response on pepipoo? Note, you can’t use a Hotmail address over there. 

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/

RobinHill

elsien: You would like to think so wouldn't you. When in the vehicle the carer requirement is 3-1 ie. 2-1 care plus another to drive. On that day two people spent time driving. Somewhat conveniently neither can recall who was driving at the time of the violation. I wonder in law how a fine can be levied and enforced upon someone who has no capacity?

Savvy_Sue

Ask if there is any photo evidence: this may show who was driving. I believe this will also extend the time for paying the charge.

You could at the same time explain the situation, state that so far it has not been possible to identify the driver, and state that it may not be possible to do so.

And finally, I think you'd want to make it clear to the care manager that the failure to record who was driving is problematic and that a log should be kept: a notebook in the car should be enough, noting date, time x started and finished driving, time y started and finished, who else was in the car etc. 

Cyclamen

Are they from an agency... if so the agency should cover this just as they cover staff breakages etc. 

If they are from Direct payments it is worth asking your employers insurance how to move forwards. 

It wont help for this time but a notebook in car where they write down who is driving and times would be useful as a safety net. 

knightstyle

Absolutely do not pay.  A polite letter explaining the situation and if that does not work contact her MP and local councillor.

unforeseen

NitroBN said:

If the mobility vehicle owner is to incapacitated to drive themselves then it is impossible for them to have committed said offence. Do not pay to start with and explain politely these facts and give them the names of the two people who drive the vehicle that day also stating both carers are refusing to take responsibility. You have then hopefully complied with the requirements.

Now report those carers to their employers for their misconduct.

The keeper is liable whether they were the driver or not. 
Capacity, physical or mental, is not a factor. 

As things stand, the keeper is unable to name the driver so liability falls back to them. They will not be interested in trying to work out which of the drivers it was. 

It will be up to the keeper to find which it was and recover the fine from them. 

Savvy_Sue

unforeseen said:

The keeper is liable whether they were the driver or not. 
Capacity, physical or mental, is not a factor. 

As things stand, the keeper is unable to name the driver so liability falls back to them. They will not be interested in trying to work out which of the drivers it was. 

It will be up to the keeper to find which it was and recover the fine from them. 

I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Pepipoo is the place to ask, but certainly there is precedent for the 'unable to identify driver' defence.

OP, did you ask for photo evidence, and did that help?

soolin

Savvy_Sue said:

unforeseen said:

The keeper is liable whether they were the driver or not. 
Capacity, physical or mental, is not a factor. 

As things stand, the keeper is unable to name the driver so liability falls back to them. They will not be interested in trying to work out which of the drivers it was. 

It will be up to the keeper to find which it was and recover the fine from them. 

I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Pepipoo is the place to ask, but certainly there is precedent for the 'unable to identify driver' defence.

OP, did you ask for photo evidence, and did that help?

I agree, take this to Pepipoo they are often able to give quite specialist advice. Do it today, don’t delay further as the clock will be ticking already.