Double checking legalities around periodic tenancy

greensalad

I'm in the middle of a house purchase and am currently in rented accommodation. I just wanted to check the legalities around periodic tenancies to check I've got it right?

We have rented our house for almost 5 years (tenancy commencement 25th January 2016). We have always signed a new AST each year. The lettings agent normally contacts us around October/November to ask our intentions and so far we've always renewed.

We offered on a house in July and had sort of thought we'd be done before the end of our current AST, but it seems now that we won't be moving house before the conclusion of our current extant AST.

When the LA contacted us in late October to ask our intentions, we didn't respond. At that time we still thought we might get some news about a completion date (as we were waiting to exchange in early December) so we decided to leave it, thinking we'd respond to them in a few weeks with a plan to leave before the end of the AST by enacting our break clause, which had a 2 month notice period.

Basically they never contacted us again and we never contacted them. We've not received an S21 (which I understand would need to be done with at least one month notice from our LL), and from reading the Shelter website a periodic tenancy will be created with a one month notice period for all parties.

This works out OK for us as we still don't know when the house will complete, a we've not exchanged, but hopefully it won't be too long.

I just wanted to check that it's correct that unless we're a) served an S21 and b) don't sign a new AST that we're not going to get a knock on the door on the 25th January asking for the keys back? 

aoleks

You are correct, your contract continues on a roling basis. Eviction takes many months and if the landlord wants you out, you have at least 2 months notice, while you only have to provide 1 month’s notice.

theartfullodger

Your tenancy continues, as periodic (monthly if rent paid monthly) forever, unless ended by court, your notice to landlord or a surrender.  In your shoes I'd not give notice (you need to give AT LEAST a month's notice, ending on end-of-period day) until at least exchange. 

A sensible landlord will be flexible (it might suit them for you to leave earlier by agreement - they might pay you to go earlier..).  Sadly to be a landlord does not require being sensible.

Agent almost certainly only wanted renewal so they could charge landlord fees for renewal.  Silly landlord letting it happen.

See also
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/67759913#Comment_67759913

Good luck with the house!

Artful: Landlord since 2000

greensalad

theartfullodger said:

In your shoes I'd not give notice (you need to give AT LEAST a month's notice, ending on end-of-period day) until at least exchange. 

Yes this is exactly what we're planning to do. Our vendor wants a few weeks between exchange and completion, and we want a two week overlap to help with decorating, so we have no plans to give notice until we've exchanged and know the concrete completion date.

theartfullodger said:

Agent almost certainly only wanted renewal so they could charge landlord fees for renewal.  Silly landlord.

Yes I've always found it stupid that the LL signs and AST each year! We were happy to sign one each year with a 6 month break-clause because we liked that gave us a bit more security whilst we were still wanting to stay in the property.

canaldumidi

No it is not necessarily quite that simple. Yes, you have a Periodic Tenancy, but it could be Contractual, or Statutory. What does the most recent contract you signed say, if anything, happens when the fixed term ends? This determines if you now have a CPT or SPT.

If CPT, notice is as specified in the contract.

If SPT, notice from you is one full tenancy period (not one month), and notice from the LL is via a S21 expiring after 2 calender months, followed by court.

Full details in my sticky:

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

greensalad

canaldumidi said:

No it is not necessarily quite that simple. Yes, you have a Periodic Tenancy, but it could be Contractual, or Statutory. What does the most recent contract you signed say, if anything, happens when the fixed term ends? This determines if you now have a CPT or SPT.

If CPT, notice is as specified in the contract.

If SPT, notice from you is one full tenancy period (not one month), and notice from the LL is via a S21 expiring after 2 calender months, followed by court.

Full details in my sticky:

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

Nothing is mentioned about going onto a periodic, but nothing is mentioned about not going onto one either. As far as I understand it, when no statement is made regarding a fixed term ending that is when a statuatory periodic tenancy is created.

From the contract:

SECTION F – ENDING THE TENANCY

1. Termination of the tenancy by Landlord or Tenant

Either party may terminate this agreement by serving not less than TWO calendar months written

notice, such notice may be served at any time but will not expire before the minimum term of SIX

months has been completed from the date of commencement of the term hereof. On the expiry of

such notice this agreement shall end but without any prejudice to any antecedent breach of the

terms hereof by either party.

2. Surrender of the tenancy by the Tenant

Strictly with the Landlord’s or the Agent’s prior written consent and subject to certain conditions

that may include the Landlord’s reasonable costs associated with the re-letting of the Premises, the

tenant might be allowed to surrender or give up this tenancy before it could otherwise lawfully be

ended.

Nothing else is specifed regarding what happens after a tenancy period ends (except for normal things like "tenant is expected to clean the property") etc

saajan_12

greensalad said:

I'm in the middle of a house purchase and am currently in rented accommodation. I just wanted to check the legalities around periodic tenancies to check I've got it right?

We have rented our house for almost 5 years (tenancy commencement 25th January 2016). We have always signed a new AST each year. The lettings agent normally contacts us around October/November to ask our intentions and so far we've always renewed.

We offered on a house in July and had sort of thought we'd be done before the end of our current AST, but it seems now that we won't be moving house before the conclusion of our current extant AST. - presume you mean your current fixed term. Your AST continues until you or a court end it, regardless of the date on the fixed term. 

When the LA contacted us in late October to ask our intentions, we didn't respond. At that time we still thought we might get some news about a completion date (as we were waiting to exchange in early December) so we decided to leave it, thinking we'd respond to them in a few weeks with a plan to leave before the end of the AST by enacting our break clause, which had a 2 month notice period.- okay, so this was 2 months notice applicable between month 6 and month 12, ie BEFORE the end of the fixed term?

Basically they never contacted us again and we never contacted them. We've not received an S21 (which I understand would need to be done with at least one month notice from our LL), - would need minimum 2 months (calendar months not necessarily in line with the 25th -> 24th dates unless your latest AST specifies otherwise. 
and from reading the Shelter website a periodic tenancy will be created with a one month notice period for all parties. - its not always one month, it depends on what you latest AST say: if something, then you're on a CPT and follow that. If silent, then you're on a SPT and notice is 1 tenancy period (ie in line with the 25->24th dates. 

This works out OK for us as we still don't know when the house will complete, a we've not exchanged, but hopefully it won't be too long. - shouldn't serve notice until you've exchanged, so depending on how the timing lines up and if you're on a SPT, then you could have upto 2 months-1day to go on your tenancy worst case (if you exchange on the 26th then notice can only expire on 24th two months later). So you may want to make sure you budget for that or negotiate a longer gap between exchange / completion if the overlap is an issue. 

I just wanted to check that it's correct that unless we're a) served an S21 and b) don't sign a new AST that we're not going to get a knock on the door on the 25th January asking for the keys back? - no, you won't

Check your last AST agreement, for anything about notice / periodic tenancy applicable AFTER the end of the fixed term (not the same as a break clause).

Remember notice MAY be for x tenancy periods (not the same as a calendar month) and may be more or less on a CPT than what the statute or any website says. 

Robbo66

greensalad said:

Basically they never contacted us again and we never contacted them. We've not received an S21 (which I understand would need to be done with at least one month notice from our LL), and from reading the Shelter website a periodic tenancy will be created with a one month notice period for all parties.

This is incorrect your notice period would depend on whether you are on a SPT or a CPT

If your tenancy agreement is silent on what happens at the end of the fixed term then you would automatically go on to a Statutory Periodic in which case you would need to serve 1 months notice inline with your rent dates however if the AST outlines what happens post fixed term you will then go on to a contractual periodic at the end of the fixed term and you will then be bound by whatever the terms are with regards to serving notice

canaldumidi

Robbo66 said:

greensalad said:

Basically they never contacted us again and we never contacted them. We've not received an S21 (which I understand would need to be done with at least one month notice from our LL), and from reading the Shelter website a periodic tenancy will be created with a one month notice period for all parties.

This is incorrect your notice period would depend on whether you are on a SPT or a CPT

If your tenancy agreement is silent on what happens at the end of the fixed term then you would automatically go on to a Statutory Periodic in which case you would need to serve 1 months tenancy periods notice inline with your rent tenancy period dates however if the AST outlines what happens post fixed term you will then go on to a contractual periodic at the end of the fixed term and you will then be bound by whatever the terms are with regards to serving notice

Rent dates are not always the same as tenancy period dates, and mention of a 'month' can be misleading.

Robbo66

@ canaldumidi, you are correct of course and i did mean rent dates. I tend to use  month as that tends to be more understood. Always happy to be corrected when i make a mistake.