Is it ok for my dad to access my mums account if she's in a care home?

SusieT

It does sound as if you need to be the person with POA, at the same time it may be worth you very tactfully saying to your father that it would be a good idea at the same time to do one for him in case anything happens in the future. That way you will have it there while he is only forgetful rather than unable to make decisions himself. 

IanManc

zAndy1 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's a messy situation but yes I agree the legality of accessing my mums account cannot be questioned and therefore we need to do something about that. The only issue I'm having really is whether my dad is capable enough to be deputy / appointee , well put it this way, he gave me the money to pay the care home bill which I duly did. I then gave him the carehome bill and told him I'd paid it to which he replied 'so I owe you £nn.nn then' to which I obviously reminded him he'd already given me the money to pay it but he couldn't recall doing that. So I think I'm going to have to apply for the DWP appointee or court of protection order (presumably even a DWP appointee wouldn't give us authority to access her account though?). I told my dad he needed to sort this out ages ago but he never listened and now it's a right mess of a situation unfortunately...
By the way, is there any question about the legality of my dad accessing the joint account given my mum's situation and lack of capacity?

First of all, you need to be absolutely certain that your mother no longer has capacity to grant a PoA. If that ship has definitely sailed then deputyship is the route to follow.

If there are doubts about your father's capacity going forwards then it would be daft for him to apply to be the deputy, so the obvious person to do it is you.

While your father still has mental capacity then it would be sensible for him to give you PoA if he is wiling to do so. If he isn't willing then you would have to wait for him to lose capacity before you could apply for deputyship for him too. It is much cheaper, easier and in every way preferable if you are given PoA while he still has capacity.

This all looks complicated, but it isn't all done at once. It takes a while and there are numerous steps, which you do one at a time. It isn't an easy situation but neither is it overwhelming. It can all be sorted out.

You need to find an expert local lawyer who you can visit for advice, and who can take you through the process. You'll pay for this, but they are familiar with the procedures and it will take some of the strain off you. Try to get some recommendations from friends or family for one or two long standing local firms who have a specialist in this sort of thing, and contact them to discuss your needs.

mab3000

IanManc said:

As far as your second paragraph is concerned, yes, it is unlawful for the bank to remove money from someone's account in the circumstances you suggest as there is no lawful authority for them to do so, and they know that. I do not accept that a bank would ever act in the way you assert. You have simply made this up. It is not a "risk the bank takes", because a bank won't do it.  

You are simply attempting - by talking about proof and making things up about banks - to muddy the waters when you're just plain wrong.

Oh right. Well I suppose I am dreaming when I am following my company’s empowerment process, a high street bank, to pay something a third party with no authority on the account, where the account holder cannot reach or talk to us about it, and using our discretion to pay out a bill that is time sensitive that could cause severe detriment to the customer if it’s not paid. How silly of me…

I have not said that the OP taking money out of the account is the right thing to do. The OP needs to get the appropriate authority to deal with their parents affairs. What they are doing is not correct, especially as far as the bank is concerned, but as they are not gaining anything from doing this, I cannot fathom what is happening in this particular scenario is illegal.

IanManc

mab3000 said:

Oh right. Well I suppose I am dreaming when I am following my company’s empowerment process, a high street bank, to pay something a third party with no authority on the account, where the account holder cannot reach or talk to us about it, and using our discretion to pay out a bill that is time sensitive that could cause severe detriment to the customer if it’s not paid. How silly of me…

I have not said that the OP taking money out of the account is the right thing to do. The OP needs to get the appropriate authority to deal with their parents affairs. What they are doing is not correct, especially as far as the bank is concerned, but as they are not gaining anything from doing this, I cannot fathom what is happening in this particular scenario is illegal.

You've made that very obvious.

Fortunately everyone else, including the OP, gets it.

cx6

Fortunately the legal profession also agree

https://www.astlepaterson.co.uk/the-i-am-able-to-deal-with-my-spouses-financial-affairs-for-them-should-they-be-unable-to-do-so-myth/

born_again

zAndy1 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's a messy situation but yes I agree the legality of accessing my mums account cannot be questioned and therefore we need to do something about that. The only issue I'm having really is whether my dad is capable enough to be deputy / appointee , well put it this way, he gave me the money to pay the care home bill which I duly did. I then gave him the carehome bill and told him I'd paid it to which he replied 'so I owe you £nn.nn then' to which I obviously reminded him he'd already given me the money to pay it but he couldn't recall doing that. So I think I'm going to have to apply for the DWP appointee or court of protection order (presumably even a DWP appointee wouldn't give us authority to access her account though?). I told my dad he needed to sort this out ages ago but he never listened and now it's a right mess of a situation unfortunately...
By the way, is there any question about the legality of my dad accessing the joint account given my mum's situation and lack of capacity?

As far as a bank goes he is breaking the T/C. Technically it is fraud as far as they would be concerned. But I doubt that they would take that route given you could prove exactly where the money was going. But POA or 3rd party mandate needs putting in place ASAP to stop any digging by the bank as to why & where the money is going.
So speak to the bank & get things started.

GIven what you have said about your father. I would be looking to get POA over both of your parents.

elsien

You can’t “get” LPA. It has to be freely given by someone who has capacity to do it. It sounds as if it’s too late for mum; it would be a good idea to suggest to dad but it’s still ultimately his decision.

With regards to the joint account, if it’s an account with either of them signing then it shouldn’t be an issue with dad using it to pay fees. There would only be a query if he was emptying the account to try to avoid the money being part of a financial assessment. 

datlex

How much contact did your mum have in person with her bank.  We found with my partner's dad when he had dementia it helped massively that his was known by his local HSBC.  When we needed to make sure his care fees were paid by taking him with us and having all the necessary invoices the bank were happy to proceed.  DWP appointee does help as well but we never needed it.

anotheruser

There's two choices here.
Forget about the morality high horse of MSE and think what is easier for you / where YOUR moral compass lies.

1) Approach the bank and ask them what can be done.  I'd like to think they would be helpful, especilly as you have a joint account but I can see them saying as you're not the account holder or named on the account, they won't talk to you about it.

Remember, banks will think the worst, like you have broken up (your relationship) or you are simply trying to steal money from his wifes account without her knowledge.

2) Make a one time transfer of all funds to the joint account.  It'll be hard to close the account without your wifes signature but so long as there have been payments made to the joint account, it shouldn't particularly trigger anything.  Make sure there's no DD or SO on the account and wait a few months / years before closing it.  It's likely it'll need her signature.

Sometimes it's much harder to do the right thing than it's worth.