Removal of Internal Wall - Advise on Budget (for Architect)

Schwarzwald

I just bought a 2-storey flat within a Grade II-listed property in London.

I'd like to remove an internal wall between kitchen/dining area and living room/lounge and open up the entire space, which will create a very large living space.
I am very confident to obtain Listed Building Consent as the wall in question is not part of the original floor layout and must have been installed later (effectively an infill under an arch, the original which still remains in the place as a historical feature). In effect, I am reinstating the original floor plan of the Georgian Town House and pronouncing its historical features more strongly.

The wall infill (under the arch) is a solid brick wall.
Before completion I was not able to figure out if it is load-bearing or not, and if there might be even a supporting beam hidden above the arch.

I have now contacted two London architects with the following scope:

1. Site visit to assess if the wall is indeed load bearing
2. If it is load-bearing, structural advise on steel beam installation
3. Creation of required documentation pack to seek approvals/consent from (i) building regulation, (ii) freeholder, (iii) listed building - as required

I am quoted twice a project budget in excess of £3,000 (excluding the actual work of removing the wall obviously).

While I am not well familiar with terms like Planning drawings, Building Regulation design package, and Structural design package, I feel I am being oversold and overquoted services, e.g. 3D model creation for the entire place, technical drawings incl. drainage systems, etc. At least that is how their quotes read.

Would be interested in advise and guidance on budget for such work, maybe my expectations are wrong, but I didn't expect 3k+ for just the architect/structural engineer.

Thank you

grumbler

I think you need a structural engineer, not an architect.

Section62

Schwarzwald said:

I am very confident to obtain Listed Building Consent as the wall in question is not part of the original floor layout and must have been installed later (effectively an infill under an arch, the original which still remains in the place as a historical feature). In effect, I am reinstating the original floor plan of the Georgian Town House and pronouncing its historical features more strongly.

The wall infill (under the arch) is a solid brick wall.
Before completion I was not able to figure out if it is load-bearing or not, and if there might be even a supporting beam hidden above the arch.

I would start by making contact with the conservation officer dealing with your building.  You need to test whether your confidence in getting LB consent reflects the reality.  Listing is aimed at preserving the history of the building at the point in time it was listed, not just seeking to preserve the original.  People commonly make the mistake of thinking that their 'restoration' project will be welcomed by the LPA... only to be disappointed if told they need to keep the uPVC windows and incongruous 1970's extension.

If the CO feels the wall needs to be retained then spending money on all the other activities would be wasted.

If you get the nod from the CO, the next step would be to get a structural engineer to take a look and guide you on what work needs doing.  If the original structural elements are still in place and adequate for the job then removal of the wall would be relatively simple.  At that point you would be in a much better position to get a professional to quote to project manage what you want done... most of the uncertainty would already be dealt with. (but don't underestimate the problems Freeholders can cause)

FaceHead

Agree that a structural engineer is the right starting point, they will work out if it's load bearing and size the beam. Ask around friends and neighbours, or start with the IStructE register. They might tell you it's safe to knock out without building control. 

They will probably work with a technician to produce the building regs drawing package, which you give to your builder to build and building controller to check up on the builder. I'm unfamiliar with listed building consent and freeholder consent, but don't see why anything more than the building regs package should be needed. 

Agree that drainage and what not sounds way overboard. I'd suggest that £1500 should get you what you need plus anything extra needed for listed building consent. £500 if it's just a visit and a letter to say it's not load bearing and you should crack on.

Schwarzwald

Thanks everyone, agree, sounds like structural engineer is indeed the way to go and I had actually messaged one before, but was unsure about differences.

Schwarzwald

Section62 said:

I would start by making contact with the conservation officer dealing with your building.  You need to test whether your confidence in getting LB consent reflects the reality.  Listing is aimed at preserving the history of the building at the point in time it was listed, not just seeking to preserve the original.  People commonly make the mistake of thinking that their 'restoration' project will be welcomed by the LPA... only to be disappointed if told they need to keep the uPVC windows and incongruous 1970's extension.

Fair point actually, I might be naive to think that just because I intend to reinstate the original floorplan, the CO will be on my side. I will start with that, although I had hoped to progress things in parallel, but to avoid a costly surprise I should probably get CO guidance first and if positive only then proceed with the Structural Engineer's work.

Will revert in few weeks time how things played out ...

Section62

Schwarzwald said:

Section62 said:

I would start by making contact with the conservation officer dealing with your building.  You need to test whether your confidence in getting LB consent reflects the reality.  Listing is aimed at preserving the history of the building at the point in time it was listed, not just seeking to preserve the original.  People commonly make the mistake of thinking that their 'restoration' project will be welcomed by the LPA... only to be disappointed if told they need to keep the uPVC windows and incongruous 1970's extension.

Fair point actually, I might be naive to think that just because I intend to reinstate the original floorplan, the CO will be on my side. I will start with that, although I had hoped to progress things in parallel, but to avoid a costly surprise I should probably get CO guidance first and if positive only then proceed with the Structural Engineer's work.

It can go either way, you could be right and the CO is keen for the building to be reverted to something closer to original.  There's just no way of predicting it... unlike most other LA 'control' processes, LB consent is one in which the personal preferences of the CO often represent the most significant factor.  The best way forward is to establish a rapport with them as early as possible so they understand that you aren't intent on destroying heritage, and you have the opportunity to get 'free' advice on the best way to proceed... often a CO will suggest things and ideas to an extent you'd never get with a 'normal' planning application process.  Aim to pick their brains and use them as if they were a free architect service, you are unlikely to go wrong then.

twopenny

I used to work alongside an Historic Buildings officer and he was surprisingly considerate of needs today and maintaining historic features.

If you have anything that will be improved, like architectural parts such as ceiling decoration, borders, that will go in your favour it would help.

Would it be possible to find out what was in place when the building was listed? There are sites online that cover some I looked at for family research that gave a description of the property and reasons for listing.