HELP - Received Reminder NTK for Parking but vehicle was Moving

Nova_GSI

NEWBIE here and I have read the NEWBIES thread: Received Reminder NTK on Beginning of December for a contravention they (Private parking Enforcer no company name mention) say occurred right at the end of October 2021. This is a Postal NTK only NOT windscreen. Having double checked our post never received NTK within the 14 days specified under Sch 4 POFA.

 The Contravention: Reminder NTK says contravention: Parking in No Parking Area

 5 photos taken by a vehicle or bike:

1: Photo from the rear as, Car stops in a one way car park as driver is looking for venue on an industrial estate where the kids have a booking.

2: Photo from the rear, Car in same position driver is still in the car. Photo is less than 5 seconds after first photo

3: Photo 3, 35 seconds after photo 2, from the front of the vehicle however the car has moved on by some distance from photo 1 and 2. Therefore car was never parked but moving and driver never left the vehicle. Enforcer must have been on a bike and overtook the driver of the car. Enforcer Not visible to driver.

4: Photo of their car park sign. Not near location in car park

5: Photo of there tiny sign at the entrance which has all the company names at the industrial estate. You will never notice it.

 The venue is trying to help and I have already appealed sending the below. The Venue is also happy to appeal and send the Parking firm an email.

My 1st appeal using the NEWBIES template and I have copied their response further below asking for the driver details or making me liable:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

Below are reason why I have not broken any contractual agreement at said site: 

1: The driver has not exited the vehicle and is looking for the venue xxxxx. The vehicle is therefore not parked 

2: The photos clearly show the vehicle has moved locations therefore the car was never parked and was moving as the pictures were taken. 

3: We are a customer of xxxxx at the said time of event (xx October 2021) and I attach my daughter’s booking confirmation from xxxxx. 

4: Photo also shows another driver of another vehicle speaking to the driver to confirm the vehicle was not left unattended 

5: The fee is also disproportionate, according to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations – parking charges on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner during the period the motorist is parked there. The charge of £100 you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner. However, the vehicles were never in a parked position to add to this point. 

6: There is no visible sign about a vehicle not being able to stop to look for a venue. Naturally, the vehicle will be stationary for some seconds whether you are looking for a venue (xxxxx) or looking for a parking spot or looking for a visible parking sign. 

7: There was no sign visible at all near where parking enforcer believes a contract has been broken. Photo of sign made available on the PCN was not at the same location.

8: Entrance sign is not clearly visible, you did not provide a close up of the sign at the entrance and is not readable.

8. I have received no prior notice to the Reminder Notice 

You must adhere to the BPA code of Practice which for the following reason you have not: 

Section 9 Professionalism states 

Parking enforcer did not make himself or herself clearly available to the driver: 

9.1 

vehicles engaged in parking enforcement, such as ANPR vehicles, are marked clearly with appropriate livery or your business name, so that members of the public can see that you are the operator. Vehicles used only to transport parking enforcement staff do not need to be liveried. 

Xxxxxxx as the authorised operator has sent you an email requesting this PCN to be cancelled as we are a customer of the venue, the below has not been followed either 

9.2 

accept that an authorised operator has the right to manage the parking on a landowner’s behalf 

For this reason, I look forward to receiving notification within 28 days that the Parking Charge Notice has been cancelled. 

 

Parking firm Response

Thank you for your email.

Please be advised that when a vehicle is parked in a private car park, the normal rule is that the DRIVER is responsible for paying the tariff fee (if any) for parking, for following the terms and conditions which apply, and for paying any parking charges.

Please note that within your appeal you did not nominate the driver at the time of the parking event and now you have a number of options:

If you wish to give the details about the driver (full name and current address for postal service) we will transfer the liability for the PCN.

If you refuse to give the driver' details, we will be able to pursue the registered keeper under Schedule 4 of the POFA act 2012.

If you are submitting this appeal on behalf of the driver, please include evidence from the driver to show that they have nominated you to appeal on their behalf.

 

Surely if I (reg keeper) never received NTK before 14 days (this is a postal NTK not windscreen) sure they cant ask me the above. What should I reply with and what’s my options now. Also no mention of POPLA yet and they are part of BPA

Help is welcome as I have done a lot of reading and loving these threads, I too want to be a success story and would love to take this further as this is blatantly illegal. They could just take a random photo of you and send you a ticket and it ends up wasting hours of ones time which I would love to make them feel. THANK  YOU!!!

1505grandad

".......(Private parking Enforcer no company name mention)......."

Are you sure no ppc name on document?

Can you post a redacted copy of the doc?

Nova_GSI

Sorry should have been more clear, yes the reminder Notice has their name i just with held thinking thats the forum rules. Parking firm is PPS Private Parking Solutions, They mention Sch 4 POFA on the Reminder and on the back the usual bits about Popla will be sent if appeal is rejected and a small bit about Data protection. Do i need to attach a redacted scan copy here or if this enough?

Fruitcake

Please confirm the name of the PPC has the name of a city in it's title.

The reason for asking is that there is an IPC member company also called PPS.

If they are a BPA member, they won't supply a PoPLA code if the appeal has arrived outside their made up appeal window of 28 days. 
It's strange how we see a lot of NTKs issued by PPCs, but many of them don't arrive.

Just a point of order. Parking charge invoices come under contract (Civil) law, not criminal law, so their actions may have been unlawful, but they were not illegal.

Nova_GSI

Yes correct Private Parking Solution (London) Ltd

Fruitcake

What happened when the keeper complained to the landowner?

Complain to the PPC that the keeper never received an NTK, therefore they consider the reminder to be the NTK and require a PoPLA code to be issued.

Complain to the BPA if the PPC refuses to co-operate.

Ignore debt collectors.
Ignore anything and everything else except real court papers. 

Umkomaas

Send a SAR to obtain a copy of the NtK. The NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post, has a link to a template to use. Then you can check what was sent, if or when. 

Nova_GSI

Fruitcake said:

What happened when the keeper complained to the landowner?

Complain to the PPC that the keeper never received an NTK, therefore they consider the reminder to be the NTK and require a PoPLA code to be issued.

Complain to the BPA if the PPC refuses to co-operate.

Ignore debt collectors.
Ignore anything and everything else except real court papers. 

I did state in my first Appeal that no prior notice was received which seems to have been ignored in their response. All they have stated in their response is under POFA they want the driver details or i am liable or that i wll appeal on drivers behalf and they want evidence that the driver is allowing me to do so.

I am the keeper... there is no details of the landowner on any sign nor does the Venue we visited have any details. The venue simply rent space and they said the landlord of the warehouses is different to the owner of the land the PPC enforce. But they have no details of the carpark landowner.

I was going to reply back with under POFA 14day rule they can now not request driver details or hold me liable? Am i right to do this? I could also at the same time complain to BPA? Just seems like they ignore my entire appeal because i did not put the drivers details down.

Is it worth at this stage to complete a SARS request as well in my reponse?

I guess i want to know what i should reply back to their response with?

Fruitcake

They can ask you to identify the driver. You are not obliged to tell them, so don't.
They can hold the keeper liable, but only if the NTK was PoFA compliant. The only way you will know this is by sending a SAR (not SARS, you don't want that on top of Covid!) as already advised by Umkomaas.

Nova_GSI

Thanks Fruitcake & Umkomaas... I will submit a SAR (not SARS :-) ) whats to stop them just faking an NTK went out on time?

Coupon-mad

Nothing.  But you will see.  Is the NTK POFA worded?

Anyway don't reply to that fishing response; just wait for the rejection letter or email.