Old CCJ debts and how they are dealt with after death

ohitsonlyme

The husband of a friend died suddenly and has left substantial assets to his wife.

12 years ago during the recession he was given a CCJ for a £10,000 loan that he defaulted on after his business failed and ended up in court.

The original creditor did not chase the CCJ,he subsequently rebuilt  his life and finances, the debt was sold to Lowell who had continued to write threatening action but never did anything as the CCJ was so old and it could not be enforced without them going back to court and not being the original creditor it was viewed unlikely  it would ever succeed in collection 

During the last 4 years of his life Dave simply ignored the letters and no further action was ever taken.

What actions can Lowells take to try and collect the debt that they likely paid pennies in the pound for 

MalMonroe

Sorry to hear about your friend's husband.

Are Lowells definitely going to take any action? Or is that just speculation? Twelve years is a long time for them to simply ignore a CCJ. 

Is there a will?

Has his wife inherited everything? In which case I guess his estate is now hers.

People don't usually inherit debt, so if his was the only name on the CCJ and he has left no estate since his wife inherited it, then I guess they can try and collect - in fact, anyone could. But whether or not they'd succeed is a different matter. However, your saying this "the debt was sold to Lowell who had continued to write threatening action but never did anything as the CCJ was so old and it could not be enforced without them going back to court and not being the original creditor it was viewed unlikely  it would ever succeed in collection" would seem to indicate that they won't try but if they do, they won't be successful. 

A solicitor will know better (hopefully) - and your friend will be able to consult hers and find out all the relevant information. I imagine that there will be a lot of things to sort out following Dave's death.

Keep_pedalling

The executor has a duty to pay any creditors before distributing the estate, so it should be paid.

RAS

This is one case where cross posting could be useful, but you need some additional information. @sourcrates

Start with date when the CCJ was issued, dates of any payments or acknowledgement made after it was issued. If there is a clear 6 years since, then the debt is unenforceable.

ohitsonlyme

RAS said:

This is one case where cross posting could be useful, but you need some additional information. @sourcrates

Start with date when the CCJ was issued, dates of any payments or acknowledgement made after it was issued. If there is a clear 6 years since, then the debt is unenforceable.

THe CCJ was Issued over 12 years ago and is uneneforcable unless ordered by court  hence Dave's stance on this

Keep_pedalling said:

The executor has a duty to pay any creditors before distributing the estate, so it should be paid.

Should be paid?? Moral and legal stance. Does anybody know of a Debt collection agency taking action over similar issues, Unenforceable credit cards would sit in the same boat and become due 

ohitsonlyme

MalMonroe said:

Sorry to hear about your friend's husband.

Are Lowells definitely going to take any action? Or is that just speculation? Twelve years is a long time for them to simply ignore a CCJ. 

Is there a will?

Has his wife inherited everything? In which case I guess his estate is now hers.

People don't usually inherit debt, so if his was the only name on the CCJ and he has left no estate since his wife inherited it, then I guess they can try and collect - in fact, anyone could. But whether or not they'd succeed is a different matter. However, your saying this "the debt was sold to Lowell who had continued to write threatening action but never did anything as the CCJ was so old and it could not be enforced without them going back to court and not being the original creditor it was viewed unlikely  it would ever succeed in collection" would seem to indicate that they won't try but if they do, they won't be successful. 

A solicitor will know better (hopefully) - and your friend will be able to consult hers and find out all the relevant information. I imagine that there will be a lot of things to sort out following Dave's death.

Yes there is a will and all goes to wife and children CCJ  was in his sole name There is no indication of Lowells taking action and so they will continue to be ignored.

Keep_pedalling

ohitsonlyme said:

RAS said:

This is one case where cross posting could be useful, but you need some additional information. @sourcrates

Start with date when the CCJ was issued, dates of any payments or acknowledgement made after it was issued. If there is a clear 6 years since, then the debt is unenforceable.

THe CCJ was Issued over 12 years ago and is uneneforcable unless ordered by court  hence Dave's stance on this

Keep_pedalling said:

The executor has a duty to pay any creditors before distributing the estate, so it should be paid.

Should be paid?? Moral and legal stance. Does anybody know of a Debt collection agency taking action over similar issues, Unenforceable credit cards would sit in the same boat and become due 

Once a creditor has a county court judgment (CCJ) for a debt, the Limitation Act does not put any time limits on how long they have to enforce that judgment.

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-sheet-library/statute-barred-debts-ew/

Keep_pedalling

ohitsonlyme said:

MalMonroe said:

Sorry to hear about your friend's husband.

Are Lowells definitely going to take any action? Or is that just speculation? Twelve years is a long time for them to simply ignore a CCJ. 

Is there a will?

Has his wife inherited everything? In which case I guess his estate is now hers.

People don't usually inherit debt, so if his was the only name on the CCJ and he has left no estate since his wife inherited it, then I guess they can try and collect - in fact, anyone could. But whether or not they'd succeed is a different matter. However, your saying this "the debt was sold to Lowell who had continued to write threatening action but never did anything as the CCJ was so old and it could not be enforced without them going back to court and not being the original creditor it was viewed unlikely  it would ever succeed in collection" would seem to indicate that they won't try but if they do, they won't be successful. 

A solicitor will know better (hopefully) - and your friend will be able to consult hers and find out all the relevant information. I imagine that there will be a lot of things to sort out following Dave's death.

Yes there is a will and all goes to wife and children CCJ  was in his sole name There is no indication of Lowells taking action and so they will continue to be ignored.

This is presumably because they are not aware of the death. Executors should not ignore debts if they don’t want to end up being responsible for them. You should at least consult the experts on this rather than ignore it and hope it does not come back to bite you. 

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/

Most people who die die with debts like this don’t also have significant assets, Dave was obviously a can pay, wont pay kind of a guy.

doodling

Hi,

I think the first question (which I don't know the answer to) is:

When pursuing this debt, would Lowells need to go back to a court and convince it that collection activities can be restarted against the original CCJ, unpaid in 12 years, or can they pursue a separate course of action against the executor / administrator?

In the former case, unless "the debtor now has money" is an acceptable reason for the court to permit the restart of recovery actions (and I'm not sure it would be after 12 years) then I suspect that the debt is effectively unenforceable.  In the latter case then I would say that they have some likelihood of success (although I would question whether they would be statute barred).

This is definitely "consult a solicitor" territory.

An alternative might be to make an offer for a reduced sum (10% to 50%?) in settlement - I'm surprised they're still chasing this 12 years after a CCJ was issued so they might be amenable to getting something back rather than nothing or an uncertain court case.  If you go down this path make sure you have a clear written agreement that the payment will be treated as complete settlement of the debt and that no further collection activities will take place, before any money is paid (this is especially important in this case where there is the possibility that they could try to convince a court to permit enforcement of an existing CCJ).  Again, if you are the executor then I would be checking with a solicitor as to the enforceability of such an agreement with Lowells before you do this - you don't want them taking the money and then in a couple of years time going to court to pursue the executor for more.

Note that the executor / administrator is in a difficult position (unless they are also the sole residual beneficiary) because paying unenforceable debts would leave them at risk of legal action from residual beneficiaries, on the other hand, whilst this debt is currently unenforceable, it could be enforced in the future if a court supported an application to do so and the executor would need to pay it.

Finally, if the executor / administrator is also the sole residual beneficiary then none of this matters as their liability doesn't really change and they can probably continue to ignore letters from Lowells until they either get bored or go back to court.  The only issue then is whether there is an inheritance tax calculation issue (unlikely if everything was left to the wife) - do you or don't you include the debt in the estate accounts (my view is that you wouldn't if you believe the debt unenforceable)?