Plumbing Help (Part 2)

Quorden

Following my adventures with the skirting board (Thanks for the help on that!) back for more advice to avoid turning the daughters kitchen into a swimming pool this weekend and wanted to sanity check my understanding of how to take off the sink this weekend.

Picture below shows the current state of things, hot and cold water pipes appearing out through a small hole at the back of the cabinet (bad picture as the hole where they emerge from is hidden by the old white pipe) and the hot water splitting off to feed the dishwasher. This was taken when the water was off and prior to turning it back on I turned the two screws a quarter turn to the horizontal position, which has now stopped water flow to the taps.

So one question is would I be right in thinking that all I have to do now  to remove the mixer tap is to remove the bolts above the screws and everything will be good, though I am assuming that they are bolts and not a single piece.  As for the dishwasher pipe, it doesn't have a screw to turn but looks like a little nut, but would that work on the same principal of turning it to the right a quarter turn?

And the last question (promise) is the one that has me scratching my head got me thinking and that I may need a plumber (or a new cutting gadget). The pipes emerge from a small hole, can fit about three fingers through it, in the back of the cabinet then hot water splits off to feed the dishwasher, so I'm guessing as a minimum the dishwasher pipe, if not all of it, was added after the back panel was fitted (unless a magician fitted it), can see a solder join just after they emerge, but wanted to check that I'm not missing an obvious way to remove that back panel which doesn't involve me cutting into the unknown?

Any advice or suggestions gratefully received as always..

Bendy_House

Hi Quarden.

Yes, if you turn these two isolating valve through a quarter-turn, so that the slots are at an exact right-angle to the pipe direction, then they should shut off the water to the tap. They can still 'let by' a small amount after this is done - you may find the tap continues to drip - so have things like cloths and a small container ready to catch all this as you do the job. (For example, if you wrap a cloth around the pipes as they bend round to head back through the back panel, and let the end of that cloth hand into a pan, that should do the trick. With luck, they'll shut off the water 100%)

Ditto the DW valve - that used to have a plastic handle on it to make shutting it off easier. So, yes, turn it an exact quarter-turn like the others.

I doubt that back panel was fitted afterwards. More likely is that the DW hose and supply pipes were threaded through from the side, behind the panel and then through - the plumber may have used a guide wire or similar. Do these hoses need to be pulled out anyway?

That leaves the tap. Good luck... Not a tricky 'plumbing' job, but access will be a 'mare. You'll be spending a fair amount of time on your back, leaning into that unit, staring upwards. So, I'd get a good directional light, and something comfy to lie on - ideally one that raised the outside level of the unit base to match the inside level (I have seen a unit floor collapse due to a fitter laying on it, but it was one of these old units with no legs, so not well supported.

To release the tap, you'll most likely need an 'box' spanner to reach right up there, and these often come with new taps. Try and assemble a series of tools, including one that will allow you to slip that box spanner right up behind the sink with no issues.

The good news is that you have isolating valves on the pipes, so if it all goes pear-shaped and you need to wait for a plumber, at least the rest of the house will have water

tacpot12

Yes, removing the mixer tap from the pipes should be just a matter of undoing the nuts at the top of the pipes, but depending on the tap, there might be something else fixing it to the worktop or sink. Remove the pipes first, so you don't put any strain on them. 

The dishwasher isolator looks like a quarter-turn valve that has lost its plastic handle. If, so giving it a quarter turn with an adjustable spanner should have the water turned off. You could try turning it off, and then, with a catch-pot underneath the fitting, try loosening the nut slowly, you will get a little water out as the pressure is released. If you undo the nut a bit more you will get a bit more water as the hose drains down, but it should not be water that is under pressure. If you get water under pressure, the isolator isn't fully turned off, so nip up the nut again, and try turing the isolator to right some more. 

If you can't get the isolator to close off the supply, you will need to turn the water off elsewhere. I would suggest that you replace the isolator while the water is off if you have had any trouble getting it to switch off. I would try to get a good quality isolator. Pegler are a good make to aim for.

Are you sure the dishwasher is fed from the hot pipe? It would usually be fed from the cold. It might seem overkill to replace the isolator, but if you can't figure out how to turn it off, then everyone else will struggle and might cause a flood if they think they have turned the water off when they haven't. You might  find that you can buy a cheap valve from Toolstation/Screwfix just to the get the plastic handle that is missing, or you might find the handle somewhere at the bottom of the cupboard. You might  even borrow a handle from an isolator elsewhere. 

It does look like a number of solder joints were made after the cabinet back was fitted. Often the cabinets are built, holes cut for pipes to protrude through, and then the cabinets are fitted to the wall, with the other piping being added later. I think this is not a great method. The next time I fit a kitchen, I'm going to experiment with taking the pipes up the wall close to the sink, before fitting the cabinet back from the front. It will need cut-outs to allow the cabinet back to pass the waste pipe and over the water pipes, but it should result in a neater installation, and one where the wall and pipes can be accessed at a later date to make changes. It would also mean that the pipes would be fixed more ridgedly as they can be fixed to the wall. The cabinet might lose some rigidity as the back stops the cabinet from racking, but good wall fixings (e.g. using  Space-plugs) will restore this rigidity.  I don't think you will be able to get the back off in a non-desctructive way, but you should be able to source a new back and fit it reasonably neatly if you do need to get behind it. 

 

nofoollikeold

1. They are nuts, not bolts above the isolation valves.
2. If you close the isolation valves the open the sink taps you will get a pretty good idea if the isolation valves are working or not.
3. Before you remove the top nuts to the isolation valves, check the connections for your new taps.  If these are flexible hoses with female connectors you will need adapters to fit them to the isolation valves.  E.g. Screwfix 2665R or 6089R depending on size of connector.  If the new taps have copper tails, they should fit directly into the existing isolation valves, but you will need two new olives, preferably copper one.  
4. The dishwasher valve has the plastic handle missing.  Just turn with a spanner or similar.  
5. The dishwasher is most probably fed from the cold pipe, not the hot.  I think they stopped selling hot fill dishwasher 20 or 30 years ago.  
6. If you want to remove the dishwasher inlet hose (or its waste hose), tie a piece of stout string round the hose and pull it out from the dishwasher end.  Any new hose can then be pulled back with the string.  Same applies in reverse if you want to pull through from the other end.
7. The backs are normally fitted into a slot in the sides and base of the unit.  Many people just remove the backs altogether, which is OK provided there are units either side to give rigidity or some other way of keeping the sides upright,  Otherwise you can cut out the back, fasten a batten all the way round then fit a new back of white faced hardboard screwed to the batten.  
8. A "multi-tool" is very useful for cutting out the backs, and indeed for countless other jobs.  E.g. Screwfix 8100P.  The hardboard is usually about 3mm thick.  Wrap a piece of tape about 4 mm from the cutting edge of a straight blade and you'd be very unlucky to do any damage.  

Quorden

Thanks All, great advice and truly appreciate you taking the time to respond.

In no particular order then, didn't realise that the DW bolt was just missing its isolator 'tap' for want of a better world. Going to take the advice to get a replacement one to avoid future issues.

I was only assuming it was a hot water feed to the DW, you're no doubt right that it's actually cold, here's hoping I don't find out when I take it off

You're right in that the DW plastic pipes were probably fitted post the back panel, but pretty sure now that the copper pipes were assembled afterwards.

As the existing kitchen is coming out entirely will have to figure out a way to cut out around the pipes to remove the back panel, on the plus side have just ordered the Screwfix 8100P (thank you), every cloud and all that.

Great suggestion on the directional light and back support as at the top of those pipes is this, which I think would be easier to take off first..maybe...perhaps..see how it goes..


Here's hoping that's the last post for a while   Thanks!

Alanp

I would be inclined to remove the nuts from the top of the isolator valves ( use pipe grips to hold the body of the isolator valve) , and fit extra long flexible hoses to the new tap ( fit the tap and hoses before you fit the new sink), make sure that you mark the hot hose so you don’t have to swap it about if it’s the wrong way round, 

Quorden

Good point, by the time I try to fit the kitchen in February I'd have forgotten which pipe was which, thank you!

FreeBear

Quorden said:  As the existing kitchen is coming out entirely will have to figure out a way to cut out around the pipes to remove the back panel,

Back panels usually slide in to a slot cut into each side of the cabinet and also the base. Sometimes, there is a cross-brace at the top that the backboard is fixed to. Cutting a small hole and hoping to feed the copper pipes through isn't really an option. Maybe cut the two copper pipes where they come through the back panel and fit a compression coupler on each one.

NSG666

If the kitchen is coming out entirely: disconnect the tap and traps and unscrew the worktop. Remove the worktop complete with sink and tap then you will be able to see down the back of the cupboard and make sure you don't hit any pipes when you are cutting out the cupboard back.

Quorden

NSG666 said:

If the kitchen is coming out entirely: disconnect the tap and traps and unscrew the worktop. Remove the worktop complete with sink and tap then you will be able to see down the back of the cupboard and make sure you don't hit any pipes when you are cutting out the cupboard back.

Now that's a plan! 

molerat

If you are leaving it disconnected for an extended period I would be tempted to :

Fit a 15mm blanking nut to each of the water valves https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-compression-blanking-nut-15mm/55441

Fit a 3/4 BSP blanking cap to the washing machine tap https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-bsp-blank-nut-x/39553

Tape a plastic bag over the waste pipe.

Will prevent any accidents and stop any smells.