Joint Bank Accounts, Whose Money?

theforest

In the earlier days of my elderly father's cognitive decline (vascular dementia) we decided it would be wise for me to become a joint bank account holder on his accounts whilst he still had mental capacity. He is now 97 and although he has mostly lost capacity for managing his accounts he is still able to express some opinion. I have my own separate account solely in my name. I continue to live in his house, which has been my home or permanent address for 20+ years. From my point of view the accounts are his and it is his money, however I am wondering if that is the view point of others:

• Due to my father being placed in a care home recently (Sept 2021) my Carers Allowance has been suspended and I need to seek some other financial support, may be Universal Credit or whatever, but will the joint accounts be viewed as my money too and push me over a savings threshold?
  
• For the care home he is sufficiently above the threshold that he has to pay the enormous fees himself. But if the joint account is viewed as my money too, then would he perhaps be viewed as having only half the amount above threshold?

Can anyone comment or enlighten me as to what may be the official or law view point on this?

eskbanker

Yes, money in a joint account is generally treated as being owned 50/50 when either person's finances are being means tested in such scenarios - it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account, hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

Keep_pedalling

eskbanker said:

Yes, money in a joint account is generally treated as being owned 50/50 when either person's finances are being means tested in such scenarios - it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account, hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

Although a joint account is 50/50 if everything in the account was provided by your father your 50% will be quite rightly seen as deliberate deprivation of assets so 100% should be included in in his financial assessment. 

What you should have done rather than setting up a joint account is set up a lasting power of attorney both for finance. The JA won’t help you dealing with his other assets, so if you have to sell the house to fund care Then you are going to struggle. 

Carrot007

Keep_pedalling said:

eskbanker said:

Yes, money in a joint account is generally treated as being owned 50/50 when either person's finances are being means tested in such scenarios - it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account, hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

Although a joint account is 50/50 if everything in the account was provided by your father your 50% will be quite rightly seen as deliberate deprivation of assets so 100% should be included in in his financial assessment. 

What you should have done rather than setting up a joint account is set up a lasting power of attorney both for finance. The JA won’t help you dealing with his other assets, so if you have to sell the house to fund care Then you are going to struggle. 

I would have though joint bank accopunrts would not be seens as 50/50 in any way.

They are 100% both persons who have the right to spend it, regardless of source.

So even if it was all your (op's) input it would still be coounted towards his assets. Having a joint bank account was a bad idea. POA would have been so much better. But people be stubborn. My mother will not. Even though she in any event wants a do not resuscitate order. She think having a note with her GP will do the job. She works in the NHS too, she should know better.

Keep_pedalling

UCarrot007 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

eskbanker said:

Yes, money in a joint account is generally treated as being owned 50/50 when either person's finances are being means tested in such scenarios - it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account, hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

Although a joint account is 50/50 if everything in the account was provided by your father your 50% will be quite rightly seen as deliberate deprivation of assets so 100% should be included in in his financial assessment. 

What you should have done rather than setting up a joint account is set up a lasting power of attorney both for finance. The JA won’t help you dealing with his other assets, so if you have to sell the house to fund care Then you are going to struggle. 

I would have though joint bank accopunrts would not be seens as 50/50 in any way.

They are 100% both persons who have the right to spend it, regardless of source.

So even if it was all your (op's) input it would still be coounted towards his assets. Having a joint bank account was a bad idea. POA would have been so much better. But people be stubborn. My mother will not. Even though she in any event wants a do not resuscitate order. She think having a note with her GP will do the job. She works in the NHS too, she should know better.

When assessing someone for care costs a joint account is normally treated as 50/50, however money gifted to someone in these circumstances then it will be deemed as deprivation of assets, so all of it will be deemed to be owned by the father.

In the case of your mother you could try to convince her by doing your own LPA at the same time. 

theforest

eskbanker said:

... it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Already had both Powers of Attorney at the time, but becoming a joint account holder seemed a sensible option with him losing the ability to manage and, sadly, for the future outcome.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account...

I would be made homeless if that were the case. I have been told the house would not have to be sold as it's my home and I'm over 60, however I've yet to verify that with official information.

...hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

That could be useful.

gozaimasu

Carrot007 said:

Even though she in any event wants a do not resuscitate order. She think having a note with her GP will do the job. She works in the NHS too, she should know better.

Could you please keep me updated re: the DNACPR? I don't think a note with a GP will be sufficient - will the GP upload this onto NHS central systems? What if she went to hospital in Scotland? They wouldn't have a record of the DNACPR. I was refused DNACPR due to my age, in a hospital facing surgery consent forms (which did not take place in the end) - my plan was to write a complaint letter to the hospital concerned, and then sign a DNACPR with them, and then also with every other hospital in the area so ensure that my wishes are 100% clear should I be injured in another NHS Trust's domain.

elsien

DNACPR is ultimately a medical decision. 

You can make a note of your wishes (ideally via an advance decision or Respect form) but the relevant medical professional can override that if they feel that CPR would be futile or if they consider after discussion that the burdens outweigh the benefits. You cannot insist on a treatment  that the medical professionals do not consider appropriate. 

https://www.resus.org.uk/respect/respect-patients-and-carers

gozaimasu

They can force someone to be rescuscitated completely against a patient's wishes?! Surgeons playing god. Completely disagree with that. Probably better off refusing all medical treatment whilst conscious. If my heart stops, I don't want it re-starting. Simple as.

elsien

theforest said:

eskbanker said:

... it would usually be more appropriate for you to use Power of Attorney in these circumstances to assist with managing his money on his behalf rather than effectively splitting it between you.

Already had both Powers of Attorney at the time, but becoming a joint account holder seemed a sensible option with him losing the ability to manage and, sadly, for the future outcome.

Not sure what the situation is with your continuing to occupy his house if he ultimately needs access to more funds than are in the bank account...

I would be made homeless if that were the case. I have been told the house would not have to be sold as it's my home and I'm over 60, however I've yet to verify that with official information.

...hopefully someone with more knowledge in this area will be along to advise....

That could be useful.

Link here to show that the property wouldn’t be included in a financial assessment if occupied by a relative over 60. 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/do-i-have-to-sell-my-home-to-pay-for-care/

elsien

gozaimasu said:

They can force someone to be rescuscitated completely against a patient's wishes?! Surgeons playing god. Completely disagree with that. Probably better off refusing all medical treatment whilst conscious. If my heart stops, I don't want it re-starting. Simple as.

No, I was making the opposite point. That some people who want to be rescuscitated won’t be, for the reasons given. 

Did you read any of the link I posted?