Euro Car Parks - Dundee City Quay

Woody407

Good Afternoon All, I am currently fighting a PCN issued by ECP on 3rd August of this year.  I only wish I had been aware of this forum prior to appealing to POPLA (an appeal I lost, surprise surprise...).

The basic facts are this: We paid the fee of £2.40 as advertised (£1.20 for 1hr, £2.40 for 2 hrs, etc.), and parked for 1h55m.  It transpired later however that a single 20p coin did not register; although this was not rejected and the ticket machine issued a ticket nonetheless, even though this obviously did not then reflect full payment for any defined parking period.  ECPs position is that we only paid for 1hr of parking, although it can be clearly seen that we intended to (and indeed did), pay for 2hrs.  After all, why would we deposit an extra £1 otherwise??

ECP provided the usual spreadsheet excerpt showing (registered) payment of £2.20, and ANPR pics of the car entering and leaving the car park.  I have complained to the management of the business we used that day, and provided proof of our custom.

Long story short, I am now at the debt collector letter stage (Debt Recovery Plus), who are seeking the sum of £170, threatening to advise ECP to take me to court, etc.

I can find plenty of info in the stickies about how the defence process works in Engand and Wales, but not so much about the next stages North of the border...  It has also been very difficult to establish who actually owns the car park, and therefore who ECP have their contract with.  The business owner has contacted the City Quay factors, (their POC) who have stated that their only involvement with ECP is to clean the car park, as ECP will apparently not do this!  They also stated that they (the factors) have received a litany of complaints about ECP.  I have asked the business owner to contact the factors again to see if they can help reveal the Landowner.

I am continuing in my quest to beat this, but it is not easy...  If anyone has any advice on finding landowners and/or what the legal process looks like from here I would be very grrateful to learn from them and use this to help me fight these cowboys.  

Umkomaas

This won't go any further than silly, safely ignorable debt collector letters. Court cases relating to private parking in Scotland are as rare as hen's teeth, and then only where multiple tickets are involved. There is no financial incentive to pursue any case below a figure of £300 as that's the level above which any costs might be claimed. Add to that the court process is quite different to any process south of the border which would be a headache for most PPCs and especially for a PPC which has hardly ever pursued a case in the England/Wales county court. 

If anyone has any advice on finding landowners 

SOME IDEAS ON DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND 

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

and/or what the legal process looks like from here

There won't be one!

Check out the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, fourth post, to know how to deal with debt collectors.

Thrugelmir

Woody407 said:

even though this obviously did not then reflect full payment for any defined parking period.  

Machine would have printed a ticket for a 1 hour stay. 

Coupon-mad

We know that.  We also all know that it is highly unlikely that ECP, who slmost never sue in E&W, are suddenly going to start Scottish litigation for one PCN where the system doesn't let them add any fees or costs (claims under £300).

Nothing will happen.

This poster won't be paying and why should they?! The industry need to sort their machines and everything else out or they have a big shock coming their way if dealing with a truly independent and robust Appeals Service next year.

Jenni_D

As per @Umkomaas nothing further will come of this other than debt collector rubbish. The Scottish Simple Procedure (which is actually an oxymoron as it seem to be more complex than the English MCOL system) doesn't allow for costs of bringing a claim to be recovered where the claim value is under £300. So if a PPC rarely does court in England then the chances of them doing so in Scotland are infinitesimal.  

Woody407

Thrugelmir said:

Woody407 said:

even though this obviously did not then reflect full payment for any defined parking period.  

Machine would have printed a ticket for a 1 hour stay. 

Insofar as I can recall, the ticket did not have any time period on it.  I do not have the ticket anymore, so I cannot definitively say this, and I have obviously not been back to the car park since.  The state of the ticket machine is pretty dilapidated, with a barely readable screen.  It is maybe worth noting that the POPLA response, which although a rejection, did state that the assessor "accepts that I probably did pay the sum of £2.40".  In the event that this does end up in Court, surely that statement speaks for itself?

In any event, I will continue trying to find the Landlord in order that I can complain directly to them and ask whether they consider their continuation with ECP to be a good policy in light of the fact that even their own Factors have a pretty low opinion of ECP.

Would you consider this worth fighting, or should I just capitulate?  I know we paid the correct fee, if ECPs machine did not recognise one coin, the fact that I paid remains and I am determined that ECP should not get away with this.  I am happy to pay for parking, but quite resonably expect a fair process - which this is not.

I have also written to my MP, so I will await their response (although I am not expecting much in the way of action).

Jenni_D

BTW - POPLA isn't really a thing in Scotland so I'm surprised that the appeal was even offered and accepted. (And their rulings are not binding on the motorist anywhere in the UK anyway).  

Absolutely DO NOT consider paying them - this won't go any further than hamster bedding (debt collector rubbish letters).

Umkomaas

Would you consider this worth fighting, or should I just capitulate? 

Capitulate?  Did you not see my post above?  This won't go any further. You're 'fighting' a shadow. You might get some response from the landowner, but short of that, forget about it, ignoring silly debt collectors and their letters!

Woody407

@Jenni_D "hamster bedding"

Coupon-mad

Why capitulate to a spurious charge that isn't going anywhere?

Be aware though: Next year in Scotland you are getting 'keeper liability' coming to a car park near you.

So be aware and always check here first because the law is changing (but obviously not retrospectively).  And doesn't affect this ticket anyway as you blabbed about who was driving.  That may in some cases still be something not to admit in new cases next year, as if is South of the Border at the moment with some PPCs who don't use that law.

Anyway ignore it unless they start the Simple Procedure, which they won't.

D_P_Dance

I wold complain to Trading Standards.   Of course you should fight it, it is a blatant rnt scam.  Have you complained to your MP?  vf