ECP PCN POPLA appeal help

Jamran

Hi all

I recieved a PCN in British Estate London E3 when I went to drop my mum off. She is a disabled blue badge holder. 

I had stopped to drop her off into a community centre and came back to the car to find a ticket on my windscreen. I must’ve been gone a couple of minutes 

The centre has its own bays (see pic) but I was unable to park in it due to there being a moped there so my car wouldn’t fit. In any case I was only going inside to drop her so thought nothing would happen. 

I complained to the landowner (East End Homes) via their CEO Paul Bloom who passed me onto Keith Brown, their Head of Housing management, who basically said follow appeals process. I am still working that angle to get it cancelled by them but as it stands I have not had much luck. 

As expected, EPC rejected the appeal and provided me with a POPLA code. 

I needed some help with the appeal write up please. I’ve taken a few pics of the location. Unfortunately, they’ve corrected the signage to include their correct name now but I can’t recall if they had it on the actual PCN as I’ve lost!

Any help would be much appreciated!

Coupon-mad

Who are EPC?  Do you mean ECP?  Euro Car Parks?

Ah, I see it's the misnomer 'Elite'.

I needed some help with the appeal write up please

You don't. 

You should tell the landowner that Elite rejected your appeal and you want him to kindly resolve the dispute and step in and cancel it, because there is no independent second appeal despite POPLA being offered, that's run by the BPA Trade body and usually finds in favour of the BPA's members. 

Complain again to the CEO and attach a copy of her Blue Badge and say that your only remedy will be a court claim for disability discrimination because clearly their disabled residents (is it her home?) are entitled to be dropped off by a carer, relative or taxi.  Tell him you will have to issue a claim against his company and Elite because they are liable for the actions of their agent, who saw the disabled passenger being assisted indoors.

Jamran

Coupon-mad said:

Who are EPC?  Do you mean ECP?  Euro Car Parks?

Ah, I see it's the misnomer 'Elite'.

I needed some help with the appeal write up please

You don't. 

You should tell the landowner that Elite rejected your appeal and you want him to kindly resolve the dispute and step in and cancel it, because there is no independent second appeal despite POPLA being offered, that's run by the BPA Trade body and usually finds in favour of the BPA's members. 

Complain again to the CEO and attach a copy of her Blue Badge and say that your only remedy will be a court claim for disability discrimination because clearly their disabled residents (is it her home?) are entitled to be dropped off by a carer, relative or taxi.  Tell him you will have to issue a claim against his company and Elite because they are liable for the actions of their agent, who saw the disabled passenger being assisted indoors.

Thanks. I’ve already emailed the CEO again stating appeal rejected. 

I thought POPLA was usually easy to win? Has that changed recently? 

tboo

What's the relevance to the 2 different parking positions?

You were parked here outside the centre.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5256388,-0.0262317,3a,72.4y,143.89h,82.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIsAc93-UQEDL4rT3bhASmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Then the pic with what looks like a police van besides your car, you were parked here.

eta. Are you indicating the position of a sign from 20+ feet away?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5260528,-0.0276301,3a,90y,168.42h,66.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMaaav2QwGW8D4r5sxRfKtw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Same incident?

Jamran said:

British Estate London E3 when I went to drop my mum off.

I had stopped to drop her off into a community centre

1505grandad

To clarify  -  ppc is BPA AoS member Elite Car Parking Management Ltd

Jamran

tboo said:

What's the relevance to the 2 different parking positions?

You were parked here outside the centre.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5256388,-0.0262317,3a,72.4y,143.89h,82.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIsAc93-UQEDL4rT3bhASmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Then the pic with what looks like a police van besides your car, you were parked here.

eta. Are you indicating the position of a sign from 20+ feet away?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5260528,-0.0276301,3a,90y,168.42h,66.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMaaav2QwGW8D4r5sxRfKtw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Same incident?

Jamran said:

British Estate London E3 when I went to drop my mum off.

I had stopped to drop her off into a community centre

Sorry I forget to clarify. The second image is the entrance to the estate showing no signs. I took that pic today to show the entrance. I’ve removed it to prevent confusion. 

D_P_Dance

Have you read the newbies?  Have you read other threads?  Have you complined to your MP? 

Jamran

D_P_Dance said:

Have you read the newbies?  Have you read other threads?  Have you complined to your MP? 

Yes I have read the newbies. There isn’t really a template on there. I’ll write up an appeal and then post it here for thoughts 

Redx

A Popla appeal is a bespoke appeal , you compose it , although the newbies FAQ sticky thread has some guidance in post 3 about what to include , examples of winning Popla appeals are listed in the Popla decisions thread in announcements too , but don't expect templates , it's reading what previous victims have wrote

The bespoke advice given earlier by coupon mad in her reply should also be followed , because plan A is ALWAYS better than plan C

Contents may include

No landowner authority
Poor and inadequate signage
No keeper liability
POFA

CRA
The BPA CoP version 8

Jamran

This is another response from the person the CEO passed my email over to 

Coupon-mad

OK so now you will need to write a POPLA appeal.  Your trump card must be those signs, both of which have reference to Open Parking, an IPC member:

https://www.openparking.co.uk/about-us/

ECP have added some badly placed stickers on the sign in the pole, but it still shows both a BPA roundel and an IPC one, plus it says that the data will be processed by Open Parking and gives their privacy notice webpage address and above it, the contract is with Open Parking, who take no responsibility for the land.  Below it, you have a sticker, bottom right that claims Open Parking's terms mean that the contract is somehow with Elite Car Parking Management.

But without any data privacy notice, which must be a breach of the BPA CoP (go read what it says about privacy notices).

The sign up on the wall doesn't have a BPA roundel at all.   Looks like it's all about Open Parking and the IPC.  It would be good to get a close up of that sign and any signs at the entrance as well.

Secondly, even if POPLA think that a sign with two different operators on it is somehow not ambiguous and doesn't breach the doctrine of contra proferentem (which it clearly does!) the sign also discloses the landowner as East End Homes.  A disclosed principal means that the contract is with East End Homes, in fact, especially where an agent takes no responsibility for the land (as the signs says, albeit Open Parking's words). 

The authority of Fairlie v Fenton (1870) LR 5 Ex 169 is authority for the legal position, that where there is a disclosed principal, an agent cannot sue. 

Therefore the operator is not established as the creditor and has no standing to litigate and is merely acting as an agent, issuing charges on behalf of the principal, the disclosed landowner.  And who is able to do this, Open Parking or Elite?  BPA or IPC? How is a consumer supposed to have formed a contract, and who with?  East End Homes?  Elite?  Open Parking?