Protecting finances of father with dementia - power of attorney, scams and potential theft

JohnRinson

Hello, this is a bit of a long story which I realise most won’t spend the time to read - so thanks to anyone who sticks with it and reads the whole tale!

My Dad has dementia, with fairly severe loss of short-term memory, although does still have ‘mental capacity’ to conduct his own affairs and daily life. 

When it first began, he set me up with power of attorney, which so far I haven’t needed to use. 

He lives alone - but has a close friend (who I don’t know very well) who lives near him and visits him most days. 

I’m increasingly fearful that this friend is taking advantage of him financially. 

I have no proof - but I want to be able to protect his interests if this is the case. 

A number of things have happened that have raised alarm bells with this person. 

I believe she has financial difficulties - he loaned her money to clear debts in the past (long before his memory problems) and may be in debt again.

Recently she actively tried to prevent him receiving assessment / potential treatment for his dementia. I couldn’t come up with a single viable, positive reason why she would want to do that. 

I could only conclude she felt she had something to gain by his deterioration in memory. 

It recently transpired she keeps his debit card and has been using it to buy things for herself. 

When this came to light, she gave the card back to him and stated that he (my dad) was “lending her money” to buy items. 

My Dad confirmed this and agreed he did give her his card.

However his short-term memory is so poor I don’t believe he could possibly keep track of such transactions and reliably be sure she was repaying these “loans”. 

Even if he could, I feel that taking - and keeping hold of - bank cards from someone with severe memory loss, knowing full well they aren’t capable of really knowing what’s happening, is extremely unethical. I wouldn’t do this myself to my own father, let alone a “friend” who I knew had these problems. 

Strange things have been occurring with his bank accounts. He has had online banking set up on them, which he hasn’t done. 

I know he wouldn’t have done this himself - he despises the internet, doesn’t have a computer and doesn’t have the internet. Someone has done this on his behalf. He doesn’t know who. 

He has also had a credit card applied for and opened in his name. 

He also despises credit cards, has never had one in his life, doesn’t need one - and when I question him about it, he insists he doesn’t have one (even though he does, as he has letters and statements about it). Someone has done this for him. 

Finally, he goes out to the same place at the same time one day each week religiously. 

Everyone who knows him knows this. 

I have witnessed this person wait for him to go out and then let herself in to his property with a spare key, which I also find very suspicious. 

I have a spare key but if I needed to visit his house, I wouldn’t wait til the time I knew he’d be out to go there and let myself in. 

I have raised my concerns with him about this individual several times but he won’t hear a bad word about her. He says he trust her 100%. 

However he also receives frequent phone scams (HMRC / Bitcoin related and so on) and trusts - and falls for - them too, so his judgement isn’t good. 

He forgets virtually everything he’s told within a few minutes. So when I tell him about her sneaking in to his property, he looks concerned but then has forgotten literally five minutes later. 

He has reasonable amounts of savings - possibly close to six-figures in cash savings in bank accounts. He also owns several small investment properties with rental income. 

He is extremely vulnerable to manipulation. 

You could hand him virtually any document to sign and just say “this is what we spoke about yesterday” and he would sign it, because his memory problems mean he can’t distinguish truth from fiction. 

Because of his inability to manage his finances, I’ve recently started using my power of attorney simply to gain access to view his bank statements online so I can keep an eye on them (this is not yet set up as it’s proving complicated to get sorted with the banks). 

However I’m worried about other ways this “friend” could be trying to con him. 

He has a will and, perhaps overly-paranoid, but I’m imagining her getting him to scrap it and create a new one in her favour. 

He owns properties outright and I’m imagining her somehow getting him to sell them and her taking the proceeds. 

I have no actual proof of any wrongdoing by her, other than a strong feeling that her behaviour relating to him is strange and financially motivated. 

She could easily - and probably truthfully - answer any accusation by saying whatever she’s done is with his consent. However I know he’s not mentally capable of giving ‘informed consent’ and can easily be duped in to consenting to anything. 

What I’m hoping for advice about is - is there any way I can somehow safeguard him from a person manipulating him financially - and to protect his cash savings and property assets, as his mental capacity continues to deteriorate and she involves herself all the more heavily in his financial affairs? 

Of course I also have a self-interest in this too, in that I’m the beneficiary of his will and fear her stripping him of all the assets that would be left to me. 

However I don’t expect, want or need anything from him now, but I fear this person does. 

Does anyone have any advice on how I could guard against this kind of manipulation, which on the surface may appear that he’s actually consenting to - but in reality could be the result of someone taking advantage of his poor mental ability? 

Thanks!

Brie

You need to take control.  You have the POA so need to ensure that all of the banks and cards are aware of this.  Also let them know that there is a potential fraud/scam threat and specifically tell them that your dad is very vulnerable.  

Once the POA is registered everywhere then set up the online accounts yourself and ensure that all the passwords are changed.  If you have any proof of the individual you suspect then ensure that the banks are aware and register the fact that they must never deal with Ms X.  

Potentially you will need to involve the police if she has been stealing from him.  You might also want to change all the locks as she may not be limiting her theft to money.  

kayleighali

Definitely invoke the POA as soon as possible. I'd change the passwords to everything and get a new debit card sent out aswell. Stop this woman from doing anything she shouldn't be. It definitely sounds like she is taking advantage.

In regards to her going into the house, if you witnessed it could you not follow her in and see what she is up to? Even have your camera on recording so if she is stealing then you have evidence. Some people are lower than a snake's belly

JohnRinson

Thanks for those replies. The slight issue I have with this is the element of her doing these things possibly with his consent. My intention is to have all his current cards cancelled, but the bank will post him new ones, which she can simply take.

When she had his card before, she said he'd let her have it (which he confirmed, although I personally doubt he remembers doing so and is just saying this). But on the face of it, she acted with his permission - and could probably do exactly the same again. 

I know I could say to him "remember the bank told you yesterday to transfer £10k to this account in Russia...." and because he doesn't know what's true or not, he would simply say 'oh yes' and do it. I'm sure she could say "remember you agreed to let me have your bank cards....?" and he would simply say yes he did. 

My feeling is that, even if he did agree, it's totally unethical to do that to someone you know doesn't have capacity to genuinely consent - but legally, it looks legit. 

I expect if she wanted to take all his cash, she probably could. I think I'm probably more worried about what she could do regarding his bigger assets - i.e. properties - potentially selling them or altering a will or something sinister like that. 

anmarj

Why are you reluctant to use the POA? Genuine question.

Brie

I get it exactly.  My MiL is much the same.  What ever we say to her she agrees.  Does she want fried mushrooms on toast for dinner?  Well yes please!  Except we know she hates mushrooms and is only saying yes because she thinks that's what we want her to say.  It's endlessly frustrating as whatever option we give her it's always yes.  Suggest then that she has exactly the opposite and it's yes again.  Do you love mushrooms?  Yes! Do you hate mushrooms? Yes!  She doesn't want to be a fuss and doesn't want to seem argumentative so agreeing is, to her, always the best option.  I would guess your dad is thinking the same way.

We have taken complete control of her accounts and removed all cards and cash from her purse.  Not that it's really a problem as she is mostly housebound but if her carer wanted to take her for a coffee we would need to hand the carer the cash or card and there's that knowing control.  It seems all a bit big brother but that's what's needed when someone is vulnerable.  

I think dad's "friend" would find selling his property or altering a will a bit too big a fraud - but one never knows.  A will would need to be witnessed by someone.  Do make sure you have a copy or know where it is so that when you invoke the POA you will have some reassurance that it cannot be altered as the courts will have acknowledged that you dad is not longer capable of changing his will.

KxMx

I'm not sure your father is truly capable of consent as you have described his state of health.
Perhaps talking to his GP or a dementia charity might help? 

I doubt a new will made by a dementia sufferer where a POA is in place would stand up in court.

You can contact estate agents yourself and explain the situation as his POA, no sales or listings without your consent. 

(A friend has POA for a relative with dementia, when his cat was pts she contacted rescues herself asking for him to be disallowed from adoption again. He did end up trying to do so as one of the rescues informed her later). 

You do really need to activate the POA and take control of all finances asap. Some banks allow limits on debit card transactions so that's worth looking into. 

Or make a new single account that he can access and you transfer money across from other one for his needs. 

This is definitely something your Dad wanted you to do if needed remember that, and now he is in need of that protection please do so. 

JohnRinson

anmarj said:

Why are you reluctant to use the POA? Genuine question.

All the POA really does is give me access to see what's happening, rather than stopping anything from actually happening, unless I go so far as to completely revoke any access to his bank accounts to him himself, which I don't want to do.

He's still going shopping, out and about doing things that he needs access to his money for.

I could take full control of his bank accounts but that'd leave him without any such access, which I don't want, as I know he wouldn't want that.

But as long as he has access to his own money - anyone who's very close to him can also basically have the same access, purely by taking his cards / checking or taking his mail, and so on.

All I'll be able to do is log in and see money being taken from his accounts - rather than really being able to stop that money being taken. Or so I believe. 

I guess my bigger worry is that if someone is opening, reading - and taking away - his mail (which I suspect but can't prove) they could possibly be doing bigger things behind his back (e.g. related to his properties) than we're aware of. 

KxMx

Added to my previous message, if you have serious concerns that someone is taking away his mail, then I believe Royal Mail do allow a poa to divert post, it could all come to you instead. 

kayleighali

JohnRinson said:

Thanks for those replies. The slight issue I have with this is the element of her doing these things possibly with his consent. My intention is to have all his current cards cancelled, but the bank will post him new ones, which she can simply take.

If you invoke the POA then you can update the account address to your own so all cards and correspondence will come directly to you. My experience is that the bank will also either want a letter from a medical professional to say your father no longer has capacity, or a letter signed by your father to say he would like the POA to be invoked and for you to take over all dealings with the account - you will know what circumstance will suit best and if a medical professional would sign off on him no longer having capacity.

One advantage of him being deemed as no longer having capacity, any alterations made to a will could be challenged in an easier way. Same goes for any additional finances taken out in your father's name, you already have that signed assessment saying he no longer has capacity to deal with financial matters from xx/xx/xx. 

Definitely invoke the POA as soon as possible as, the longer you delay, the longer this will continue

JohnRinson

Brie said:

I get it exactly.  My MiL is much the same.  What ever we say to her she agrees.  Does she want fried mushrooms on toast for dinner?  Well yes please!  Except we know she hates mushrooms and is only saying yes because she thinks that's what we want her to say.  It's endlessly frustrating as whatever option we give her it's always yes.  Suggest then that she has exactly the opposite and it's yes again.  Do you love mushrooms?  Yes! Do you hate mushrooms? Yes!  She doesn't want to be a fuss and doesn't want to seem argumentative so agreeing is, to her, always the best option.  I would guess your dad is thinking the same way.

We have taken complete control of her accounts and removed all cards and cash from her purse.  Not that it's really a problem as she is mostly housebound but if her carer wanted to take her for a coffee we would need to hand the carer the cash or card and there's that knowing control.  It seems all a bit big brother but that's what's needed when someone is vulnerable.  

I think dad's "friend" would find selling his property or altering a will a bit too big a fraud - but one never knows.  A will would need to be witnessed by someone.  Do make sure you have a copy or know where it is so that when you invoke the POA you will have some reassurance that it cannot be altered as the courts will have acknowledged that you dad is not longer capable of changing his will.

Yes this is spot on. He rarely likes to admit the full extent of his problems and you can easily tell most of the time he's just acting like he knows what you're talking about, to make it look like he's not forgotten.

This makes him very easy to manipulate if you wanted to. And even if he were to catch someone doing something untoward, he wouldn't remember they'd done it - even minutes later. I genuinely think someone could literally rob him of all the possessions in his house at gunpoint and half an hour later he wouldn't remember it. And the robber could say 'remember - you said I could take your TV' and he would just say "oh yeah, I remember". 

This is what I'm struggling to understand how I can protect him against. Someone taking things from him that he says / thinks he's agreed to, in which case are they really committing an offence, other than being unethical!? And, if not, where's the limit to that.... Remember you sold that flat you own to me for £1... etc. Yes, maybe a stretch too far in terms of it being a big fraud, perhaps just my imagination running wild and simply keeping an eye on the bank accounts will help maybe.