Resignation, Lieu time and HR

Kipz86

Hi 

I work for a college within the marketing department, when I first started there was a team of 9 including myself 4 of us with the same role, a line manager and manager. As time has gone, members of the team have left including the line manager and 2 months ago the manager but they still haven't employed anyone for their jobs they've been advertising some of the other roles for nearly a year and for the marketing manager role no one they interview apparently was suitable. 

We are now down to a team of 5, the 4 doing the same job are still there. 

As a department we also have to work overtime for events and weekends and supposed to have lieu time back to use the hours. I have about three days worth of lieu time I would like to use up and we another upcoming event this Saturday. 

I have been looking for another job. I have just been offered a new job and I'm really excited to be moving on and I start in January. I resigned a couple of weeks ago and have to give two months notice. 

The college closed for Christmas. My last date of employment is in January but my last working day is 17th December. When I resigned I suggested is it possible for me to use my annual leave and add this on so I could potentially leave on the 9th December but my last date of employment would be in January.

HR phoned and emailed me and said I can't use any of my annual leave or any lieu time due to the department demands. 

But a week later they have offered me an option to leave on the 9th December but my last date of employment would be the 9th December and I can't use any of my lieu time or annual leave towards this but be paid this. 

I feel this contradicts what they've just said as to why I can't use my annual leave or lieu time, if the department demands are stopping me from leaving earlier why are they suggesting this? 

I feel they want me to go earlier so they don't pay me or include the Christmas college closure. By leaving on the 9th December would give me an employment gap of nearly a month.

For the college job application they required a 5 year employment history for the job.

HR are expecting me to respond to their offer this week.

TELLIT01

Basically the employer can tell you to use all, part or none of your leave entitlement during your notice period, that is entirely their choice.  They have changed their mind about what they want or need of you, again that is their choice.  If they want you leave earlier than your notice period they would still have to pay you.  It's PILON, Pay In Lieu Of Notice.  You won't lose out financially.

On a CV put the date 2 months on from the date you gave notice as end of employment, and include a note saying the last month is covered by PILON.

Kipz86

TELLIT01 said:

Basically the employer can tell you to use all, part or none of your leave entitlement during your notice period, that is entirely their choice.  They have changed their mind about what they want or need of you, again that is their choice.  If they want you leave earlier than your notice period they would still have to pay you.  It's PILON, Pay In Lieu Of Notice.  You won't lose out financially.

On a CV put the date 2 months on from the date you gave notice as end of employment, and include a note saying the last month is covered by PILON.

They haven't said about using PILON but changing my last date of employment to the 9th December.

Thrugelmir

No one is going to care about the gap. On your CV you'll have left in December and started your new role in January. 

Savvy_Sue

You wanted your last day there to be 9th December. They've decided they can accommodate that request. They'll pay you for the leave you're owed. Sounds like a result, BUT ... 

Be aware, if they are making your last day of employment 9th December then that does slightly reduce the amount of leave you are entitled to, by at least two days or so, AND it would be worth checking exactly what they are offering to pay. Because where I work, you are supposed to take your TOIL before you leave rather than be paid for it. If some of the Christmas closure leave is additional to your leave entitlement, that might well reduce it even more. (We get three extra days in that closure week: they're not added to our leave entitlement, we can arrange to work them if we want, but I don't know what would happen if someone gave notice to cover that period.)

Also worth checking: how much notice are they required to give YOU? My contract says that I'd have to be given more than a month's notice if they wanted to get rid of me: I only have to give them one month. If you gave more notice than you are required to give, I think they can tell you to go earlier than that, but if you are entitled to more notice than they've given you, they would seem to be on shaky ground. 

Kipz86

Savvy_Sue said:

You wanted your last day there to be 9th December. They've decided they can accommodate that request. They'll pay you for the leave you're owed. Sounds like a result, BUT ... 

Be aware, if they are making your last day of employment 9th December then that does slightly reduce the amount of leave you are entitled to, by at least two days or so, AND it would be worth checking exactly what they are offering to pay. Because where I work, you are supposed to take your TOIL before you leave rather than be paid for it. If some of the Christmas closure leave is additional to your leave entitlement, that might well reduce it even more. (We get three extra days in that closure week: they're not added to our leave entitlement, we can arrange to work them if we want, but I don't know what would happen if someone gave notice to cover that period.)

Also worth checking: how much notice are they required to give YOU? My contract says that I'd have to be given more than a month's notice if they wanted to get rid of me: I only have to give them one month. If you gave more notice than you are required to give, I think they can tell you to go earlier than that, but if you are entitled to more notice than they've given you, they would seem to be on shaky ground. 

Thanks Savvy_Sue

Yeah the Christmas leave we only have to use two days compulsory annual leave to cover it from the 17 December to the 3 Jan. 

In my contract it said I have to give two months notice, which I did. HR said I had an additional 6 days annual leave (I hadn't used) based on my 2 month notice.

On my contact it just says if you work any weekend or evenings you'll get the lieu time to use. Nothing about being paid it.

Thrugelmir

Kipz86 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

You wanted your last day there to be 9th December. They've decided they can accommodate that request. They'll pay you for the leave you're owed. Sounds like a result, BUT ... 

Be aware, if they are making your last day of employment 9th December then that does slightly reduce the amount of leave you are entitled to, by at least two days or so, AND it would be worth checking exactly what they are offering to pay. Because where I work, you are supposed to take your TOIL before you leave rather than be paid for it. If some of the Christmas closure leave is additional to your leave entitlement, that might well reduce it even more. (We get three extra days in that closure week: they're not added to our leave entitlement, we can arrange to work them if we want, but I don't know what would happen if someone gave notice to cover that period.)

Also worth checking: how much notice are they required to give YOU? My contract says that I'd have to be given more than a month's notice if they wanted to get rid of me: I only have to give them one month. If you gave more notice than you are required to give, I think they can tell you to go earlier than that, but if you are entitled to more notice than they've given you, they would seem to be on shaky ground. 

On my contact it just says if you work any weekend or evenings you'll get the lieu time to use. Nothing about being paid it.

Normally you'd be expected to use this time up fairly promptly. Not allow the time to accumulate. 

74jax

Are they wanting you to leave on 9th, but pay you your full notice due, plus holidays and time owed OR are they wanting you to agree to end your employment on 9 December and only pay you holiday and time owed? 

getmore4less

Do not agree to an earlier finish date without FULL PILON.

They should pay for accrued unused holiday based on the earlier date.
holiday that would accrue in the paid period can always be taken in the period you could have worked.

TOIL would be contractual.
In practice they can structure this as TOIL then partial PILON.

I would look at the total due to you if you left at end of notice and make sure you get at least that if they want to terminate you early.

If they would not agree then just work through.
Then you can enforce the TOIL contractual term and take the days off before you finish or agree they can pay you.

If they don't want you to use holidays then they get paid on termination.

If there is no management who is running the show?

Kipz86

Hi 
We currently have the principal above us we have a weekly meeting with, they only want to know about what work we are doing nothing else. They normally are running out the door to another meeting as they are so busy.
Two members of the team were promoted to a title change of senior when our manager left.

We have a yearly calendar when we can/can't use any holiday or toil and red zones which we can't take leave but this calendar doesn't take into account our department needs eg Open Events, preparation for events, guides launch etc  but designed for teachers but as a company we keep to this.

We also have to support other departments eg enrollment, any school visits etc which isn't to do with us. I've asked to use my toil but refused by senior member of the team and I suggested dates where there's no events and no one else is off and didn't effect any work demands/projects. The senior members in the team are only letting us use half days even though last year we could use full days off. Hence I have about 3 days worth. 

Thanks about the PILON advice, I didn't know about this.

I'm just glad to be leaving the company and going to another job. 

getmore4less

Senior members are saying you can't use TOIL and the policy says you have to use it.

Remind the seniors the rules say you have to use the TOIL before you leave and tell HR you are being blocked from using them.

Let them duke it out.

What is the holiday year, if calendar and ends Dec as your final day is in Jan you can throw in should also use up all holiday as well.(what is the carry over policy?)

Very important not to agree to early termination date and lose notice pay.

I am a great believer in being reasonable in notice periods but there is a limit where you push back and look after your own interests.

Any new qualifying TOIL time, I would be pushing back.
some of the existing is used in the week before or the new in the week after.

Some things will have to get dropped from the schedule if there are staffing issues.

One of my pet peeve is management that make their problems a problem for me.

That is what's happening here they are just kicking the problem into next year when they are one more down.

Unsustainable, you can raise this in the next weekly meeting.

Your going so don't have to play the pretending everything can get done game any more.