SUCCESS — PCN Cancelled - Private Residential Parking

amvo33

I wanted to share my story of receiving a PCN and my eight month saga of getting it overturned which yesterday I finally had confirmed.  I realise this is a long post!

I own a flat as the leaseholder and my lease includes a parking space in the car park adjacent to the block of flats.  The car park does not have secure gated entrance so non-residents use the car park a lot - the management agent has a contract in place with CPM to provide parking enforcement.  Each leaseholder is issued with one permanent parking permit plus a visitor permit.  I’ve lived there for two years and always displayed the permit on the dashboard of my car without giving it any thought.

In February 2021, I received a PCN in the post with a photo showing the permit curled up and therefore not displayed correctly according to the T & C’s displayed in the car park.  The letter informed me I was in breach of these terms and to pay £60. My naive reaction was that this would be very easy to sort out as CPM had my address details on the PCN and would see that I am a resident and that the PCN had been issued in error (as surely the CPM contract would focus on enforcement of non-resident’s vehicles!) The management company also hold details of resident’s vehicles so this would be simple for them to confirm.

I contacted the management company and asked them to confirm this and help to cancel the PCN - I got a curt response telling me to appeal to CPM as it was nothing to do with them.  So I went down the farcical online appeals process still thinking it would be easy to sort out. After many weeks of going back and forth, confirming I was the leaseholder, had a right to park under my lease, I’d taken legal advice and even suggesting they issue permits that didn’t curl up, I was told my appeal had failed (the wording was even apologetic - sorry about your predicament but you still have to pay us).  I now realise that their tactic is to draw out the appeals process so that when an appeal eventually fails, they “graciously” give you a couple of weeks to still pay the original £60 and I imagine many people give up at this stage or assume that they must pay.

I then started reading the various threads on MSE forums and realised I needed to pursue this further although I have to say it’s a minefield of information for the uninitiated and difficult to fully understand but I would advise people to read as much info as possible on the forums.  I actually contacted the Lease Advisory Service who provide free advice - it took them a month to respond but the advice they provided, including links to successful court cases against the parking companies, was invaluable.  I went back to the management company but they still wouldn’t intervene.  It wasn’t until I left a one star trust pilot review that they started to take it seriously.  My bad review got escalated within the management company and I was asked to provide more details.  I also followed up with a complaint email. The management company followed up with CPM and the PCN has now been rescinded.

The bottom line is that my lease grants me with an unfettered right to park in the allocated parking space although this would equally apply to an unallocated space in a car park.  The lease mentions nothing about a requirement to display a permit or adhere to any third party contractual terms and that is the important part.  It is also not straightforward to amend a lease to include these types of changes even though many leases will include clauses stating that a lease can be amended.  The management company should be aware of the terms of the lease.

Over eight months, I’ve received the PCN, followed the appeals process which was rejected, PCN increased to £120 and then received two further debt collection agency letters asking for £170 not to mention extensive communication with the management company.  I honestly wonder if I had done nothing whether it would have ever reached a court hearing given what I now know.  The debt collection agency’s letters used intimidating language - if you don’t pay now, your credit will be affected, we’ll take you to court, you’ll have to pay extra costs and we will win, etc. What has made me so angry about this is how these companies rely on scaring people into paying - I’ve discovered that other residents in my block of flats have simply paid because they’re worried about being taken to court, car being towed away, etc. All of which are false scare tactics.

I have no issue with displaying a permit if it helps to identity vehicles that shouldn’t be parked in the car park but perversely, CPM never pursue owners of cars parked in the car park that don't have a right to park there; vehicles parked for many months with nothing done to remove them - clearly not easy pickings for them although they probably can’t legally do anything (I haven’t looked into that side of things yet).

All I can say is please please persevere… complain… write bad reviews…. get angry, within reason, if you have to!  I was close to paying the PCN until I received the advice from the LAS.  It is scandalous how these companies are allowed to operate and make money. And don’t get me started on the property management company who even now still insist that permits are legally required which is wrong.  I have asked them to display information to residents that confirms this is not the case so that others aren’t duped into paying in future - that battle still continues.

I am happy to share the Lease Advisory Service information they provided although that is based on the information from my own lease but I’m sure it would help others in similar situations.  

D_P_Dance

They have wasted your time, now waste theirs, read these and consider a  claim for trespass, harassment, misuse ot date, or interference with you statutory rights under Section 37 of the Landlord and Tenants Act.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6307797/success-pcn-cancelled-private-residential-parking#latest

https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/residential-letting-questions/1053920-private-parking-companies

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/324523-ukpc-liable-for-trespass-success/

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/

Coupon-mad

 I actually contacted the Lease Advisory Service who provide free advice - it took them a month to respond but the advice they provided, including links to successful court cases against the parking companies, was invaluable.
i am happy to share the Lease Advisory Service information they provided 

Yes please, we've not seen their advice before so I think we've missed a trick.

And it's good to see you sticking around and posting advice to other victims of residential private PCNs.

Next job for you is getting together with other residents at a meeting and getting UKCPM kicked out, asap.  You do not need a pseudo permit scheme run by an ex-clamper.  You don't need ANY parking firm at all; the message for all the residents is that your lives would be so much better without thinking about this crap.

Can you also post about this with a link to this thread, in 'SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINTS ABOUT PPCs' so it stays there for posterity and names and shames the MA, and also tells people how to complain to the LAS and who can do that (leaseholders? Tenants?).

 

fisherjim

Well done! It's about time these management companies were educated to the fact that they are there for the residents benefit not just to make money out of them and support the greed of their appointed contractors.

I live on a small private estate in Devon, like many new builds today the local council will not take on maintenance and upkeep of communal areas so a management company look after things, sub contracting the upkeep to a ground maintenance company.

The management fees are more than the cost of the sub contracting fees, and they basically do nothing,  but we are tied in for five years until we can do anything about it.

Le_Kirk

amvo33 said:

All I can say is please please persevere… complain… write bad reviews…. get angry, within reason, if you have to!  I was close to paying the PCN until I received the advice from the LAS.  It is scandalous how these companies are allowed to operate and make money. And don’t get me started on the property management company who even now still insist that permits are legally required which is wrong.  I have asked them to display information to residents that confirms this is not the case so that others aren’t duped into paying in future - that battle still continues.

Could you ask them (I know it's finished and you've probably better things to do now) where they got this information and can they give you a link to the actual law!

D_P_Dance

Well done! It's about time these management companies were educated to the fact that they are there for the residents benefit not just to make money

I have been a landlord for 45 years.  My experience of managing agents is that for evert good one, there are four bad ones,   Here is one I  locked horns with

https://www.allagents.co.uk/parkaspen.co.uk/

amvo33

Coupon-mad said:

 I actually contacted the Lease Advisory Service who provide free advice - it took them a month to respond but the advice they provided, including links to successful court cases against the parking companies, was invaluable.
i am happy to share the Lease Advisory Service information they provided 

Yes please, we've not seen their advice before so I think we've missed a trick.

And it's good to see you sticking around and posting advice to other victims of residential private PCNs.

Next job for you is getting together with other residents at a meeting and getting UKCPM kicked out, asap.  You do not need a pseudo permit scheme run by an ex-clamper.  You don't need ANY parking firm at all; the message for all the residents is that your lives would be so much better without thinking about this crap.

Can you also post about this with a link to this thread, in 'SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINTS ABOUT PPCs' so it stays there for posterity and names and shames the MA, and also tells people how to complain to the LAS and who can do that (leaseholders? Tenants?).

 

Thanks - I will try and find the link to the thread as you requested and post it there together with the information that LAS provided.  I agree about getting rid of UKCPM, it's persuading the other residents / leaseholders that this is a good thing!  Most people seem to think they patrol the carpark and get rid of any cars that shouldn't be there but they don't - I've had too much time working from home over the last year and so have a good idea of what they are up to!!

pineapple_butter99

amvo33 said:

I wanted to share my story of receiving a PCN and my eight month saga of getting it overturned which yesterday I finally had confirmed.  I realise this is a long post!

I own a flat as the leaseholder and my lease includes a parking space in the car park adjacent to the block of flats.  The car park does not have secure gated entrance so non-residents use the car park a lot - the management agent has a contract in place with CPM to provide parking enforcement.  Each leaseholder is issued with one permanent parking permit plus a visitor permit.  I’ve lived there for two years and always displayed the permit on the dashboard of my car without giving it any thought.

In February 2021, I received a PCN in the post with a photo showing the permit curled up and therefore not displayed correctly according to the T & C’s displayed in the car park.  The letter informed me I was in breach of these terms and to pay £60. My naive reaction was that this would be very easy to sort out as CPM had my address details on the PCN and would see that I am a resident and that the PCN had been issued in error (as surely the CPM contract would focus on enforcement of non-resident’s vehicles!) The management company also hold details of resident’s vehicles so this would be simple for them to confirm.

I contacted the management company and asked them to confirm this and help to cancel the PCN - I got a curt response telling me to appeal to CPM as it was nothing to do with them.  So I went down the farcical online appeals process still thinking it would be easy to sort out. After many weeks of going back and forth, confirming I was the leaseholder, had a right to park under my lease, I’d taken legal advice and even suggesting they issue permits that didn’t curl up, I was told my appeal had failed (the wording was even apologetic - sorry about your predicament but you still have to pay us).  I now realise that their tactic is to draw out the appeals process so that when an appeal eventually fails, they “graciously” give you a couple of weeks to still pay the original £60 and I imagine many people give up at this stage or assume that they must pay.

I then started reading the various threads on MSE forums and realised I needed to pursue this further although I have to say it’s a minefield of information for the uninitiated and difficult to fully understand but I would advise people to read as much info as possible on the forums.  I actually contacted the Lease Advisory Service who provide free advice - it took them a month to respond but the advice they provided, including links to successful court cases against the parking companies, was invaluable.  I went back to the management company but they still wouldn’t intervene.  It wasn’t until I left a one star trust pilot review that they started to take it seriously.  My bad review got escalated within the management company and I was asked to provide more details.  I also followed up with a complaint email. The management company followed up with CPM and the PCN has now been rescinded.

The bottom line is that my lease grants me with an unfettered right to park in the allocated parking space although this would equally apply to an unallocated space in a car park.  The lease mentions nothing about a requirement to display a permit or adhere to any third party contractual terms and that is the important part.  It is also not straightforward to amend a lease to include these types of changes even though many leases will include clauses stating that a lease can be amended.  The management company should be aware of the terms of the lease.

Over eight months, I’ve received the PCN, followed the appeals process which was rejected, PCN increased to £120 and then received two further debt collection agency letters asking for £170 not to mention extensive communication with the management company.  I honestly wonder if I had done nothing whether it would have ever reached a court hearing given what I now know.  The debt collection agency’s letters used intimidating language - if you don’t pay now, your credit will be affected, we’ll take you to court, you’ll have to pay extra costs and we will win, etc. What has made me so angry about this is how these companies rely on scaring people into paying - I’ve discovered that other residents in my block of flats have simply paid because they’re worried about being taken to court, car being towed away, etc. All of which are false scare tactics.

I have no issue with displaying a permit if it helps to identity vehicles that shouldn’t be parked in the car park but perversely, CPM never pursue owners of cars parked in the car park that don't have a right to park there; vehicles parked for many months with nothing done to remove them - clearly not easy pickings for them although they probably can’t legally do anything (I haven’t looked into that side of things yet).

All I can say is please please persevere… complain… write bad reviews…. get angry, within reason, if you have to!  I was close to paying the PCN until I received the advice from the LAS.  It is scandalous how these companies are allowed to operate and make money. And don’t get me started on the property management company who even now still insist that permits are legally required which is wrong.  I have asked them to display information to residents that confirms this is not the case so that others aren’t duped into paying in future - that battle still continues.

I am happy to share the Lease Advisory Service information they provided although that is based on the information from my own lease but I’m sure it would help others in similar situations.  

Hi OP, thanks for your post.

I am in a similar predicament. A relative of mine was parked in my bay (which I own as per the lease agreement) and I was given a PCN 7/5/23 as a permit was not displayed.

My management company have not been helpful stating I have to take this up directly with the company, PCM.I appealed to them which they obviously rejected, appealed to IAS who also dismissed my case. I ignored multiple letters from Trace debt recovery (as per advice in this forum).

I now have received a letter from Moorside Legal (not a LBC) who are representing PCM to collect the payment.

Also the car is not registered in my name, can I use this argument to dismiss the PCN? But then I am afraid they will use DVLA to get through to my relative.

Could you please share the advice from Lease Advisory Service?

Gr1pr

Amvo33  has not been active here for over 3 years,  so I suggest that you start your own thread as per the rules here,  thank you